Unlawful vs Lawful shipclass availability balance. House of Liberty. (to Devs)

[Gahc_Spotok]

Just make the battleships that shouldnt exist in great number really crappy while maintinng their seiging weapons (for example make them crappy especially in defensive terms) and the problem will solve itself.

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[Thyrzul]

the path of leveling playing field in battleship availability department was already taken. It doesn't matter if it makes or doesn't make sense for Outcasts or Rogues or Lane hackers or Xenos, it already happened with Hessians exactly for PVP Balance reasons

PvP balance reasons? I thought it happened because Blodo was a dev at that time...

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[Vredes]

There are no more pirates in sirius. Even the rogues and way too far from their original RP. No one is pirating, but more like fighting for freedom. Deal with it, this is disco, where the unlawful caps are more than the lawful ones.

Edit: I support the idea, but it will never come.

[SnakThree]

DELETE

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[Fluffyball]

So, going back to my question. Wouldn't pirates just capture ships or just be crude and get (by any means) freighters and transports, mount military stuff on it (like powercores) sacrificing the cargo bay and put a lot of armor plates on that?

I think that the thing that would distinguish House caps and Pirate pseudo-caps (because pirates rely usually on their mobility) would be:
+ More weapon arcs.
+ Faster engine.
- Weaker shields (perhaps leaving transport ones?).
- Weaker armor.

Just imagine Kusari Heavy Train with 20 gunboat Cerbs.

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[Vredes]

Bad idea

[Zed26]

And specially for Lythrillux - the path of leveling playing field in battleship availability department was already taken. It doesn't matter if it makes or doesn't make sense for Outcasts or Rogues or Lane hackers or Xenos, it already happened with Hessians exactly for PVP Balance reasons You can ofcourse say that Liberty deserves to be an exception for whatever reasons, but I can hardly imagine unquestionable argumentation for that given current state of Liberty capspam and excellent capital ship line Liberty Lawfuls possess, combined with base sieging issues, combined with Hessian precedent.

...

It's about Liberty Unlawful vs Lawful shiplclass availability one as well as, but not limited to, base sieging capabilities, as I've mentioned multiple times in the original post.
I've really emphasized it that much to avoid derailing this thread.

I know you keep stressing "derailing the thread" or "not the point", but many of these are valid counters to the argument because there's a lot more to the situation.

Yes, there's a precedent with the Jormungand from some time ago, but I'm not sure it's considered a good precedent by many. To avoid going further and opening that "some factions got big caps" can of worms, one can argue the Hessians are highly militarized with a ZOI expanding into the Omegas, so they have to contend with many more enemies - lawful and unlawful - who also field capital ships. What's done is done there.

The lore should matter. Liberty unlawfuls are pirates/terrorists hiding on asteroid bases and preying on traders, with the only capital ships they have to fight coming from Liberty. Therefore, they fight using asymmetric warfare - especially Rogues with the Barghest and Scylla, though they only managed to produce the destroyer by working with the Mollys and adapting Outcast tech. They lack the resources and facilities to produce and maintain larger capital ships. The Scylla was actually buffed recently with an additional heavy cruiser turret, but the Lane Hacker gunship still deserves a lot of improvements. This keeps battles interesting, rather than becoming a contest of who can field the most capital ships, but even then, good bombers can be the decisive factor. PVP balance doesn't have to involve giving both sides open access to the same classes of ships.

Yes, sometimes Liberty does need exceptions. New players with a poor grasp of the rules and roleplay already cause enough of a headache and require careful education when flying lawful capital ships. If the rage, sanctions, and discussion of ZOI revisions generated by recent swarms of Outcast capital ships in Liberty were any indication, making these readily available to Liberty unlawfuls will be even worse. If Rogues/Hackers/Xenos want to acquire a battleship they can always SRP them.

So the main reason left to give Liberty Unlawfuls access to the largest capital ships is POB sieges that can barely be considered PVP, summon swarms of capital ships, are tedious for both sides, bring out OORP interactions, generate scores of sanction reports, and lead to massive amounts of tears. I'm not sure the devs would consider perpetuating this to be a positive fix - even more so when the first post explicitly argues for disregarding RP and lore.

@Toji-Haku: Now that customized ship requests are a possibility, this can be an interesting SRP if you kept it reasonable (both in PVP and RP), but it's not the norm and probably won't be available for open sale due to the necessary resources and facilities that most pirates don't have - nor is it likely to do sufficient DPS to bases as the thread is advocating for.

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[Mímir]

well sometimes those new players in caps interfere and cause a great nuissance and need to be removed. no one can reach them with similar ships in N.Y. and i am not sure that extra "protection" does anyone good - not the new players either, as they dont hold back when they get the chance to chase a lone snub or jump into an ongoing duel guns blazing on their dreads.

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[Zed26]

well sometimes those new players in caps interfere and cause a great nuissance and need to be removed. no one can reach them with similar ships in N.Y. and i am not sure that extra "protection" does anyone good - not the new players either, as they dont hold back when they get the chance to chase a lone snub or jump into an ongoing duel guns blazing on their dreads.

That's the problem with escalation. Making big capital ships available to players for unlawful purposes like attacking traders, shooting bases, or jumping into ongoing duels from the other side will just make it worse - especially in the hands of players unfamiliar with rules/RP (or who don't care).

Liberty dreadnoughts and carriers can be outrun so the unlawfuls can regroup (especially with the new speed changes) and take them down with bombers. There don't need to be similar ships when there are effective counters - and I'm saying this as someone in factions on both sides of the law in Liberty. Balance the ships that already exist if it's an issue, like the Lane Hacker gunship, which IMHO could use a big buff as it's their only unique ship, but that's up to them. However, adding more capital ships into the equation is going to cause a lot more problems in RP, PVP, rules, and development.

An important point the proposal leaves out is that the Outcasts laws themselves state that only destroyers are to enter Liberty when escorting cardamine convoys and fine anything larger. RP-wise, this reflects the limited number of ships needed to defend their home systems/attack their neighboring enemies. OORP-wise, this is supposed to prevent a lot of outrage directed at their factions that would lead to tighter rules restricting on their caps, but this might happen soon due to several independent Outcasts breaking these laws.

The only part of this proposal without an existing solution is the inability for unlawful factions to hit bases hard without fielding a horde of cruisers, but it needs to be better than, "Forget the lore and RP and attempts to implement viable asymmetric PVP, we need the DPS to blow up bases."

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[Mímir]

well imagine this, you zoom around for half an hour trying to find someone to fight. you get lucky, pews ensure and you are having a fun time in an even bout. libdread shows and says engadgg - sure I can gtfo, but thanks a lot for spoiling the fun. And this goes for playing lawful snubs and unlawful snubs alike, the vast majority of the time liberty caps are a nuissance.

the one moment they are not a nuissance is right now in texas, where there's a rheinland fleet begging for a fight, and LNS all logs off.

its a problem, because these players get the idea that caps are only meant to run around and annoy snubs in relative safety.

im over-exaggerating and this doesn't go for all lns'ers, but it's the general experience playing both sides. when you are fighting on their side, lns are good at removing gunboats that interfere in duels though, got to give them that.

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