"Mary Sue" character stigma - problems with RPing bad guys

[Thyrzul]

Dude, that's just the D&D alignment system.

That's D&D alignment palette, Thyrzul. It's just a slightly more expanded 'good vs evil', not much more than that. Personally I prefer when you have a difficulty categorizing characters into some narrow (or slightly less narrow) morality box.

Apologies then, I can't say I know much about D&D, and this list seemed to be more colorful than simply good vs bad. Now as I look at it, it is kind of good-neutral-bad squared.

What I still think and say is that there are no good guys and bad guys just different sides of conflicts, where everybody can be convinced about what they do is right and who oppose them are wrong, or could be fully aware about how morally rotten himself/herself is but so rotten he/she is actually quite fine with it. Good and bad are relative terms, depend of viewpoint.

---

[Curios]

I confirm the mary sue syndrome but, however, it's less global then "80%" of people who actually makes RP background for their characters.

Maries are born from the problem of not developing character's RP and background and thus your char is just acting as you used to think is right from personal experience that comes from films (with good guys always being cool and winning in the end), books, etc. Without per-developed story and line you can't keep that line well and slide on the superhero line quiet easy.

How to solve: Write the damn bio and story, read RP of the faction. Use logic. Profit.

What I want to say is that people who are actually reading the forum and have a clue about RP are not exactly falling into that problem often. It's those who just fly there w\o taking care about RP much, just sufficient RP before pews to avoid sanctions. I guess those who actually plays the role are aware of the faction's RP and, usually, not always, are aware of what your character should be supposed to be.

---

[Blodo]

Playing a universally good or evil character is just so... boring. How can you surprise your friends or enemies if you are perfectly predictable? I for example enjoy putting on a convenient face as a character which conforms well to the situation at hand. The Military is trying to take hold of the mining areas? Lets brand them as evil invaders and ourselves defenders of the people, fill the airwaves with rhetoric about the Military's dishonourable and freedom hating ways. A rival pirate group is trying to move in on my territory? Lets make them scared for their lives by attacking them without mercy and suspending all parlay, then forcibly integrating what remains into the fold. Another organisation asks for an alliance? Depending on the consequences of this alliance (and more importantly: what they bring to the table) they will either become the best of friends, or friends in name only until they have no use any more. Corporations start duking it out through rough competition? Play both sides to ruin each other, then join the mess to wipe the remains - or maybe just sit back and watch to conserve your own resources? The underlying point in getting involved in anything is always: how will that best benefit my own ends?

I always find that a manipulator style character with only a very vague definition of morality (if any at all) is the most interesting for me. Manipulators like outlined above thrive on fooling others into thinking that they are predictable. The reason why they are successful is because the world is equally filled with outwardly single-dimensional "simple" people who do not follow a particular cause (or their cause is deeply personal so as not to involve others), as it is with those heavily ambitious individuals with an agenda in mind which many times involves abusing the trust of others for whatever devices they follow.

And lets also make a case like this: there's a fair number of characters here whose owners think of them as something alike lawful good on the D&D scale, when depending on the perception those are more like lawful evil in quite a few instances. Being "good to the core" can also result in atrocities in the name of the greater good, but of course those characters will not see these as atrocities, but rather a means to a "good" end. But of course with perceptions, the definition of "good" varies also. One of best examples would be Benitez whose characters do genuinely think that they are doing the best for their people by providing them with more materials and goods for consumption and survival, while in reality by doing all of that they are perpetuating wars and bankrupting foreign corporations. Are they good or evil? Lawful or chaotic? Depends on who you ask.

So with all of the above in mind, I do think there is a place in disco even for those boring "super good" characters, because nobody can impose on anyone else what they can regard his character as. Even groups of Zoners who are pacifists and simply work to benefit their edge world communities can be seen as dangerous profiteers on the edges of wars, to be viewed with suspicion at the very least. And especially somebody who plays a "paladin" Navy character will be seen by most others who are not his direct allies, as someone to be deeply wary of (if not outright unfriendly) - after all, obeying and upholding the strict rule of law also means being complicit in crimes perpetrated by those who write said laws.

So even a truly "black and white" character will not have his "black and whiteness" survive the first interaction they make with any character who does not completely agree with everything they believe in. But that's just my opinion on the matter, of which the tl;dr version is: people can play their character however they want, and it's easy to fit your own character's reactions into that anyway.

[Manticore]

As a few others have said, I think Disco's problem is less of the Mary Sue variety and more along the lines of poor character development. (A Mary Sue is a "perfect" character that can do no wrong, is every other character's favorite person, and typically is allowed to bend or stretch the in-universe rules a bit. That's my interpretation of it, at least.)

I really like making complex character backgrounds and giving my characters competing motivations, but at the end of the day, character development boils down to a very simple idea.

What does your character want, and how far will they go to get it?

So if you're a Rogue who just wants to feed yourself and your family, you'll probably be willing to kill whoever necessary to make sure you make ends meet. But if you're a Navy officer who wants to climb the ladder and command a Dreadnought one day, you'll probably follow orders to the letter and look for ways to earn distinction in combat, but you probably won't go so far as killing senior officers to speed up your chances of promotion.

Point is, people always act to further their own best interests, and their view of morality is the only thing that can ever get in the way of that.

---

[kikatsu]

Well if people want to play heroes and try to be valiant, that is fine by me. I just think people should expand upon their stuff a bit more and try out other things. My LN guy is a perpetual screw up, I have a lazy fat Junker who is spying on just about everyone, and my BHG is a scumbag who might just watch traders get killed by pirates if they annoyed him and then kill the pirate afterwards.

Sometimes you want to defy expectations just slightly and come at people sideways, make it more interesting and memorable and fun.

Here in Freelancer though, it is all about point of view really... there is no group that really says rawr I am a badguy.... no good villain says they are evil, they always justify what they do and make it sounds like the best course of action, or at least one that would work.

[MartoGuy]

The term Mary Sue is not a term to only describe, a character as one sided. One sided characters can be wonderful, depending on the setting and/or the situation. The term Mary Sue is too hard to define precisely, it is mainly used to describe a character which with no turmoil or trouble succeeds in situations he is placed, just by merely being him. A person which has no downside traits, or if any they are made irrelivant. Most often the Mary Sue character is a superficial self insert into the story.

An example of Mary Sue would be Bella from Twilight, a boring perfect heroine. The Mary Sue, when assaulted by vicious pirates, will convince them with his/her brilliant people skills, not only to let her go, but to join her side. When faced in an impossible to win situation, he/she will prevail, due to him being more than everyone else. When there is trouble, he/she will succeed, with or without the skills to do so.

One sided characters are not Mary Sues. A one sided character which is only good, may not succeed, he may fail and reconsider his standing, his views may be twisted, he could suffer turmoil and be affected by it. The Mary Sue, would simply win, because he/she is perfect and her views are also perfect and the only right ones. The one sided character may reconsider his actions in a gray situation, or may not, but he will accept the good and the bad effects of them. The Mary Sue will not, he/she will win, and will suffer no ill effect.

The good knight, who tries to prevail everyday against evil, who suffers his burden, is not a Mary Sue. The good knight, who defeats the Lich with no effort, because he is the only chosen one, is a Mary Sue. The Vicious Space Pirate, who was born in the slums, who has fought his way to his seat, is not a Mary Sue. The Vicious Space Pirate, who is totally not a copy of Khan (KHAA...), but better is a Mary Sue.

In Freelancer, there is hard to be a Mary Sue, unless supported by a lot of players. The Vicious Space Pirate in his gunboat, may be killed by the greasy bastard behind the broken Roc. The Badass Shoot-First Ask-Questions-Later, Freelancer, might get his ship blown up by pirates in fighters, lowly miners and so on. In Freelancer if a groups is playing, undefeatable Muchachos, because they have big Cahones, also they have enhanced state of the art technology which they have because, they totally reversed enginerd this Alien Technology in their tin cans, may be viewed as Mary Sues, by some.

When creating characters, have fun. But remember when you have to play with other people, they must have fun too. So throw in a couple of negative traits in there, talk with other people, exchange ideas and so on. Try and not just play yourself, try and see other peoples ideas and views. But most importantly have fun, and make sure everybody has a cut out of that fun cake too.

tldr Try and make it more believable in coherence with the setting. Don't self insert heavily. Try different things.

[Highland Laddie]

Playing as Gateway| has provided our group with a lot of fun in exploring with the whole "good/bad" concept.

As a corporation, we're bound to act within a certain degree of lawfulness. However, we've also kinda taken on the role of the underdog/bad boy company that is willing to sink a few levels to go after the competition (most specifically Bowex and EFL/IDF). We do this anywhere from comm harassment when we see them (had a memorable time jabbing insults at a Bowex ship the other night), to trade-lane disruption (when no cops are watching), to outright piracy (also when no cops are watching) outside of Bretonian space. We basically get to assume any/all roles when the situation warrants it.

Players looking for a little flexibility should check us out.

[dirmaster0]

I believe the problem is the capabilities of the individual player themselves. I've had no problem switching between my lawful & unlawful characters--Its about keeping their individual personalities and characteristics partitioned within your mind (Yes this sounds a little schizophrenic)--But its easier to RP with the unlawfuls if you have the idea of what the character may be separated in your mind, making them an individual. In the GRN's case, not really sure how you mean to be "bad guys" as the UC/Brigands/Council do the unlawful job in Gallia-- But I suppose from a Sirius-Wide perspective you guys are indeed instigators of this Tau-War...
tl;dr
Depends on how you base your character initially (personality, habits, etc)-- being able to maintain that, or adapt with the changing times in Sirius.

[Aphil]

I admit, I skipped through the thread but I can safely say that the SCRA is evil and everyone in it is evil and we're all evil bastards pretending to be good while secretly wanting complete domination and the subjugation and destruction of everyone we consider inferior.

---

| Sirius Coalition | Information Centre  | Recruitment Centre | Visa Application | Communication Centre |

[JayDee Kasane]

Damn it Aphil. What have you told me about giving out our secrets? And you did same! DEMOTED TO MIL!!!

---