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(02-21-2014, 03:32 PM)Soul Reaper Wrote: Oh and uhh, as for the ALG/DSE thing, you guys should really hire mercs to kill one another, corporate warfare isn't supposed to be out in the open like that.
This has been said here a couple times now, but I'm not convinced. In Disco, and vanilla freelancer, NPC transport convoys are heavily escorted with several fully-kitted-out fighters. These fighters happily get into fights to the death with other, hostile NPCs. So they're not just there for show. They're trained fighter pilots.
With that established, what's stopping one of these corps from sending one or two of these escort wings into a secluded, lawless, dark matter cloud to "silently" destroy a rival company's mining vessels? The law is. But again, while it's a mere 3-minute trip in-game, those fields are actually as far away from the lanes as planets are away from the sun in this universe - in other words, with realistic distances, they would be on the other side of the solar system. The law won't see the event nor hear about it if it's pulled off well.
The ultimate cop-out of cop-outs applies here: "Space is dangerous". Corporations aren't composed exclusively of men in fancy suits. The Freelancer universe is a pretty dark one, and I think direct conflict between corps is acceptable and perhaps even "realistic" in it.
(Not that I'm opposed to the Reavers being hired by [ALG] to shoot DSE)
(02-21-2014, 02:22 PM)Moveit56 Wrote: I agree that RP is ruined left and right for the corps, why? Because the houses opinion is over yours. You cannot do what you like, because you 'must' follow guidelines from the house.
Is House opinion > Corporation opinion?
Definitely not on a player-player level. Corporation player's fun counts as much as House player's fun.
Doubtful it is even on an ingame level, where lore pretty clearly states who has the power and who directs the decisions and that Navies and Police as the executive powers are nowhere strong enough to even meet the most basic security needs of their House space (not even talking about Border Worlds).
Corporations are being ruled by non-existing governments or overly powerfully portrayed Navies because they allow to be ruled by them.
Why? I do not know.
Likely because it is sometimes convenient and because people are not aware much of that it is not about Wal-Mart tanks and Pepsi bombs... but about Cortez's boarding crews, Mr. Rhode's excursions into South Africa, "The Sun never sets on the Empire", or "Ein Platz an der Sonne" period...etc. Wrong time, wrong impression of what your factions can do, should actually do.
Houses should have a firm hold on the lanes in House space, the stations between... and pretty much nothing more. Whatever happens outside, especially far outside, is up to the people who decide to do something that suicidal.
Corps do. And they should do so completely on their own risk and responsibility.
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(02-21-2014, 08:45 AM)Mrs. Altejago Wrote: Doesn't the Colossus have more guns? If so.... Oh hang on. That wont be a problem.... Mastodons are nasty if you meet them in the trade lanes.....
Quite right you are! Mastodons are dangerous. I hit a pirate just as he was escaping from [LN]. Lucky hit, or was it?
On topic:
I agree very much with Sol, Moveit65 and Mrs. Altejago. What is Liberty without its corporations anyway? A military dictatorship. At the moment the corporations - mostly DSE - are the only people who are actually limiting, or trying at least to limit our navy, military or how you would like to call them.
(02-21-2014, 03:43 PM)Haste Wrote: This has been said here a couple times now, but I'm not convinced. In Disco, and vanilla freelancer, NPC transport convoys are heavily escorted with several fully-kitted-out fighters. These fighters happily get into fights to the death with other, hostile NPCs. So they're not just there for show. They're trained fighter pilots.
With that established, what's stopping one of these corps from sending one or two of these escort wings into a secluded, lawless, dark matter cloud to "silently" destroy a rival company's mining vessels? The law is. But again, while it's a mere 3-minute trip in-game, those fields are actually as far away from the lanes as planets are away from the sun in this universe - in other words, with realistic distances, they would be on the other side of the solar system. The law won't see the event nor hear about it if it's pulled off well.
The ultimate cop-out of cop-outs applies here: "Space is dangerous". Corporations aren't composed exclusively of men in fancy suits. The Freelancer universe is a pretty dark one, and I think direct conflict between corps is acceptable and perhaps even "realistic" in it.
(Not that I'm opposed to the Reavers being hired by [ALG] to shoot DSE)
I'm not saying they shouldn't be shooting one another in a border system or anything, since the law doesn't care about those places. But as for "out in the middle of nowhere", the fields are in known places and the DSE has very much made it clear that there's been things going down with the ALG in an official communique to the Government. If you want to put it into a full realistic scope, then there would obviously be government-aligned ships also patrolling that area.
If you want to put it into a universe-player interaction realism, at least for the LSF, we've even roleplayed the existence of drones that scout Liberty, a place like the cloud in which the mining is done (and where the combat would probably take place within Liberty) would obviously have units within the area making sure no smugglers/pirates are using it, and in this case, a counter against corporate-warfare.
Either way, that level of realism doesn't in disco, it can't, why? Because it takes 3 minutes to get to the cloud. So in that scope, in my opinion, ALG and DSE shouldn't be shooting each other with publicly within Liberty and the laws. They could, but if they're seen, the consequences might not be in either side's favor.
(02-21-2014, 03:59 PM)Deatlev Wrote: At the moment the corporations - mostly DSE - are the only people who are actually limiting, or trying at least to limit our navy, military or how you would like to call them.
Oh, didn't see this post at first.
Uhm, no?
The thing that limits the LN/LSF/LPI in killing everything are the server rules. Neither of those factions can just kill a lawful lib corp without reason. The only "control" they have over Liberty is within roleplay, if a lawful acts unlawful, there will be consequences. There's no "military dictatorship", the armed forces do things under their role, if they don't, then they'll get sanctioned, simple as that.
No faction can "limit" another one unless they're supposed to limit them roleplay-wise.
Posts: 3,554
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Does a house at war with two other houses - although one war is more or less over - really have the resources to dedicate to patrolling some far-away cloud to prevent two corporations from having the odd clash?
I'll have to agree with a few others here. While houses are powerful, they are not 'omnipotent'. They can't be everywhere at once or do everything at the same time. Gallia is knocking on one door while the front with Rheinland hasn't calmed down completely yet. I really don't think the government would care that much unless the "corporate war" became actually harmful to the economy and/or national security. I doubt that, in roleplay, it's that large-scale a conflict.
Also important to note: [ALG] are filthy Krauts. You know, those people who Liberty is at war with. Sure, you kind of need them to get rid of your Toxic Waste, but many a Libertonian would rather see those disgusting Rheinlanders rot. Deep Space Engineering is clearly run by a patriot who despises those people. Perhaps looking away and letting him have his way with the Rheinlanders for a little while will keep him and his corporation happy. Hell, if some information about it leaks out it might even get the involved politicians some votes: "they're letting DSE set its hounds on the Krauts, just what they deserve!"
I'm in favor of putting more autonomy into the hands of House Corporations.
On the debate of whether corporations should have armies: In the world of Freelancer, yes. Supporting arguments have been stated previously.
Compromising Proposal: An actual government, respective of the type of Government for each House, should actually be established. However, instead of RPing hundreds to thousands of Government personnel, we restrict it relatively to the Players willing to be apart of the Government.
For example, Liberty is a Republic, so its government should be designed as such. Each official faction in Liberty should have a set amount of representatives, and there should be an election to put a set number of non-faction players in the republic. All members of the government would have one common goal (to improve or support Liberty), however each would have a natural bias to support their own faction (or in the independent's case, the citizens of Liberty). After the structure of the government is complete, procedural rules and the establishment of roles should be written and agreed upon. Most of those will most likely be claimed as "common sense" to some, but it should be used as a way of reference and guidance ("Oh, I see you're upset and calling people names. Well according to procedural law 1.3, which everyone has agreed to, we must refrain from personal attacks and a 30 minute break should be enforced if that were to happen.").
The pitfalls of establishing such entity is that all of the debates/discussions will happen on Skype. Where, OORP and RP will clash in this chat. There must be some ways of reducing that pitfall. One way could be that if someone wanted to RP, then they would have to indicate that they are RPing as the government personnel, OR if someone wanted to discuss things from the OORP perception, then they would have to indicate that they are doing so. Much like how we should type "//" in game to indicate it's OORP talk.
If the "Liberty" government rather have the LN/LSF/LPI to direct the future of the house, and continue to restrict the influence of the Corporations/Citizens, then we should scrap this idea and just call Liberty for what it is--a form of Dspotism.
I believe that the benefits of bringing political RP and interactions into Freelancer outweigh the negatives, and if you look at the politics of Kusari I think we would all agree.
(02-21-2014, 04:13 PM)Haste Wrote: Does a house at war with two other houses - although one war is more or less over - really have the resources to dedicate to patrolling some far-away cloud to prevent two corporations from having the odd clash?
Uhm, yes? Why wouldn't they?
Countering corporate warfare (at least in the case of ALG/DSE) is a side-product of securing Liberty internally.
The Navy fight the wars and use the most resources in doing so, it's their main purpose. The LSF supports the Navy with intelligence (whilst using much less resources). The LPI secures lanes/stations/public areas within Liberty. While at a time of war, most resources would be diverted to Liberty, the LSF for instance still have many assets within Liberty and they patrol those far-out locations of interest. Jumpholes are frequently used by smugglers and other hostile entities, that's a known fact, clouds/fields can also easily hide pirate bases and other hostile entities passing by, these are all known facts, it's the LSF's primary role to secure places that the LPI doesn't go to. As a by-product of this, they'd also be making sure stuff like this is kept to the very minimum.
The LSF and LPI are both defensive entities, not offensive ones. There's a reason they exist.
(02-20-2014, 06:03 AM)Mrs. Altejago Wrote: If I recall correctly, the piece in question was something along the lines of [LN] talking on behalf of the government because no one else would weigh in, despite the fact two people had (because it was pushed to have an answer) - with an opinion differing yours. Even from the "Govt. opinion" you made there, it really isn't. Or at least, not those who put their two cents worth in so far.
Yes, I was wrong about them not saying anything in skype, but, since we are still waiting for replys from last year with the Lib govt. I think it was a fair assumption in regards to not a lot being done.
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