Unlawful vs Lawful shipclass availability balance. House of Liberty. (to Devs)

[Zed26]

Right, but how is it better when unlawfuls become capable of doing the same thing in Liberty? The tit-for-tat just makes it worse all around.

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[Highland Laddie]

You give Rogues their own BS, and soon all you're going to see is BS (LN, Rogue, RM, MN, etc) flying all over Liberty everywhere....which doesn't seem to be any real solution to the problem you're describing, aside from your desire to want a good base siege group against Liberty Lawfuls. My suggestion on the latter would be either:

A) try working closer with Maltese Navy and use their BSs for sieges
B) using the Hellfire Legion Spyglass (if it's even still available)
C) use more Scyllas w/ bomber support
D) try coordinating attacks with RM if sieging in Texas
E) preceed a proper siege by harassing the base's shield as constantly as possible with snubs, GBs, etc., and destroy any supply transports trying to resupply it
D) All of the above

[Sath]

Don't know what to say, but in the ongoing fight in NY, I am seeing over 4 or 5 OC caps. It is fun and all, yeah. Can't deny that fact, but is definitely not even partially in terms of RP as to how they could afford so many Sarissas into Liberty. meh, Just rebalance their ZoI and let them use Scyllas atleast.

[Mímir]

well if it was up to me, capships would only be for sale at stations at the front lines, and special gates / jumpholes would be put in place so caps couldn't go back into core territory. if your house is involved in wars on two fronts, you'd have to buy two seperate caps for each front. there'd be an arena for fleet fights at the front line, and an arena for snubs in core space - but that's never going to happen, i know.

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[Knjaz]

I like how everything degraded into "Rogues can or can't have battleships" once again. Anyway, back to topic.

Don't know what to say, but in the ongoing fight in NY, I am seeing over 4 or 5 OC caps. It is fun and all, yeah. Can't deny that fact, but is definitely not even partially in terms of RP as to how they could afford so many Sarissas into Liberty. meh, Just rebalance their ZoI and let them use Scyllas atleast.

So you're completely okay with totally cutting Unlawful side in Liberty access to battleship class ships? What does separate Liberty base builders and Lawful playerbase from the rest of Sirius that they can enjoy total lack of battleship-class support on Unlawful side? What makes them so special, in your eyes?

Though, I'm starting to wonder indeed - why whenever it comes down to outcast capital ships, I see you 2 guys crusading against them? You should really go switch sides/ships once in a while, I enjoy playing on my Liberty/Rheinland/Kusari/Corsair/Hessian/Gallic etc. capships as well. Well, Kusari not so much, it's a bit dead, but that's not the point.

To other posters, especially Zed26 - what you were saying is a very exact definition of unequal treatment and unbalanced playing field. You're also, once again, degraded into discussing if Rogues/whatever faction have inRP capabilities of battleship construction, while the original request was about Developer Team finding a way to ensure possibility of inRP battleship-class support for Unlawful side of the House.

So the main reason left to give Liberty Unlawfuls access to the largest capital ships is POB sieges that can barely be considered PVP, summon swarms of capital ships, are tedious for both sides, bring out OORP interactions, generate scores of sanction reports, and lead to massive amounts of tears. I'm not sure the devs would consider perpetuating this to be a positive fix - even more so when the first post explicitly argues for disregarding RP and lore.

The first post explains the existing problem, and it's specifically addressed to a developer team and asks them to find a way to fix it in a most fitting from their point of view. Or did you forget that it's the DevTeam that defines the core of current RP and Lore? Vidars were also considered perfectly capable of countering Rheinland BSes until Jorms, and Hessians were considered as uncapable at BS construction and/or usage.

How is that "disregarding RP and Lore" is beyond my understanding.

Just make the battleships that shouldnt exist in great number really crappy while maintinng their seiging weapons (for example make them crappy especially in defensive terms) and the problem will solve itself.

That's something I'd personally support, but it'd mean that
Redemptions should be wrecked by Valors.
Jormungands by Bismarcks.
Legates/new sair ossies which name I do not remember - by Dunkirks.
Togos by Kusari Battleships.
Sarissas/Ranseurs by Kusari and Liberty battleships. (Though, in case of Kusari and partially Liberty battleships such conditions are already met, Ranseurs/Sarissas are cannon fodder for KuBSes. I've also yet to see a Sarissa capable of bringing down my LiDread. I guess that's physically impossible unless you use cloaking device - but even then you'll be attacking heavier BS with lighter one in close range brawl.).

And they could get something else in return, like vastly increased cargo space together with more docking modules (sorta motherships for pirate fleets), or higher speed, etc - but it's not really a point of this thread. Point is - shipclass availability in certain game region, that's all.

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P.S. And last thing.
Suddenly this in New Berlin was and is considered "cool"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp86LiUXFa4

And in New York it's perceived entirely differently? To the point where local Lawful/quasi-lawful players starts to get highly dissatisfied with the very thought of allowing local Unlawful opposition an inRP use of capital ships, as opposed to half-inRP half-ooRP current state of things?

Wtf people? We had this on constant basis back in the day around New Berlin, and aside from the whole "Hessians with Battleships" initial complaints, it was pretty damn fun. This thread clearly shows that some players need to get out of their cosy shells they got too used to.

All I'm asking here is not to make Liberty an exception to Sirius-wide Lawful to Unlawful shipclass availability balance.

[Zed26]

Actually, I'm in both the LR and PLR and have been for quite some time. I can pretty confidently say that petitioning the devs for capital ships bigger than the Scylla and open to all with the ID is not really high on the list. We absolutely love our Barghests and Scyllas. The emphasis has been on working with the Rogue RP that means being the underdog in terms of tech, which makes getting through fights even more fun. Of course, this doesn't mean SRP capital ships aren't an option.

I'm not advocating "unequal treatment and an unbalanced playing field" for the very factions I'm in. Instead, I'm asking to continue interesting, viable, asymmetric warfare - the difference is that it's entirely possible for a group to not have the same types of ships, but still pull through. Rather than throwing in more ship types, balance the existing ones (like the Greyhound) as effective counters. Poorly-funded pirates and terrorists use hit-and-run tactics so they can rob traders and escape or mob their bigger opponents from all sides while being difficult to hit individually. If you're a small ship, it makes sense to use the buddy system. This keeps things more interesting than suddenly filling a system up with massive fleets of capital ships on both sides sitting around and slugging each other - that's for warring military factions.

I'm well aware that it's the dev team (with members coming and going) that decides the lore. Call me presumptuous, but I feel a request for the devs to squeeze in some story to justify giving some unlawful factions battleships (or call them in) so they can do more damage to POBs and fill up Liberty with more capital ships probably won't sit well with them or the lore they have in mind. The Rogue and Outcast factions have already decided, inRP, that they don't want large capital ships in Liberty and that seems to be going along fine. However, if you want to build some RP as an independent Rogue around summoning Outcast battleships/dreadnoughts to Liberty, just be prepared for RP consequences. I'm not sure why it's necessary to petition the developers to force the issue through mechanics when the actual factions themselves have made a decision to be low-key.

Thyrzul already mentioned there may have been other reasons for Hessians getting the Jorm and I know you've been around long enough to have seen the community reactions to swarms of capital ships from certain factions with very thin justification.

Also, a PSA for anyone making mod suggestions:
If you feel the discussion is not going in the direction you want and/or would like to send your questions/suggestions directly to the developers to ensure they're heard, consider posting in the Discovery Mod Development Requests subforum instead.

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[Lonely_Ghost]

I take Knjaz's position here. IMO, there should be a choice. If LR offical faction, says, that they not going to use battleships, let it be so. Same have done 101st, who RPed, that Outcasts has only few battleship type vessels. And players who were in 85, do know, how it was in-game.
Just some organisation, some mutal respect from both offical and unoffical players, and everybody would have fun. And again, fun, is what brings players to game.

So I say, add BS availability for Liberty unlawfulls. It's democracy you know, everyone might fly what he want, as long he's not breaking rules. You want to keep your faction straight snub oriented play, nothing wrong with it. If someone want to fly a battleship, why not? More players will log on the other side, to fight that battleship, doesn't it?

Anyway, I think, that everyone will keep their position, but just asking. What do you prefer? Server with many players with some mess and fun, or sever with small players, but very acurate and very "correct" ?

[Mímir]

The Rogue and Outcast factions have already decided, inRP, that they don't want large capital ships in Liberty and that seems to be going along fine.

But in-rp, what sense does this make? That any outcast could allow another outcast to lose his life in the hands of rogues - inrp that should call for krieg.

No, it's an oorp decision created by players who do not like capital ships. It is like there is a common consensus to treat Outcast caps in Liberty as oorp, and thereby non-existent, which is why it is allowed to gun them down without consequences.

It's not roleplay, it's a remnant of old animosities, and it's hard to keep that up without Moka.

That being said, I'd prefer the core systems to be entirely cap-free.

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[Flash™]

Can't believe there's still a argument about this.

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[Pavel]

Knjaz is right here.

Pirate battleships add new gameplay factor, and increase activity inside their Houses. It doesn't really matter in Liberty's case will it be 90% OC dreds for LR/LH ID or Rogue-Molly battleship, but one of those two options should be added (in the latter case Mollys would get battleship as well, what'd bring even more good.)

Their existence nullifies also (largely untrue, by the way) point that "House without war is a dead House." Such argument discriminates non-naval factions, which are some over 90% of House factions, and treats activity of those 90%s as something worse. Taking Kusari for example, gameplay wise nothing stops their unlawfuls, especially Dragons with acces to caps, from being equal to KNF, and adding to internal Kusari activity. Only general low Disco player count and inactivity of those pirate factions causes KNF players to rust, missing "old good Leeds days."

There are no more pirates in sirius. Even the rogues and way too far from their original RP. No one is pirating, but more like fighting for freedom.

Uhm no?