Ship-based technerf thread one billion

[Haste]

What if I fly lets say a freelancer id with lets say any kusari hf/vhf and rheinland plasmas? So that I get a tiny shotgunning vhf that goes anywhere he wants. Balanced? Nah

...

Guns are balanced the same way in terms of regions. So guns mounted on a ship from a different region can have wildly different result.

Bit silly to discuss this "in public" but these examples/statements are only valid for older Discovery versions. Kusari no longer has "Tiny VHFs". Amusingly, one of the most broken ships I flew in .86 wasn't hampered at all by shipnerf anyways, being a puretech pirate ID Katana. Discovery has always had far bigger balance flaws than the hypothetical ones brought up whenever shipcompat is discussed, honestly.

Guns are hardly regionally balanced. Regionally themed, perhaps, but I can't really think of guns that'd be particularly amazing on ships from another region to the extent that it'd cause genuine balance issues. Generally, you'd likely have to accept a 75-90% nerf to fly such a combo anyways, making it even less of a balance issue.

Note that Karst's post specifically points out 'recent' changes that make shipnerf obsolete. If you were to ignore that, yes, his case would be weaker. Bit silly to pretend we live in the past when discussing changes for today / the future, however.

[Adam_Spire]

The shipcompability is however something that I could never understand, beside obvious differences between Gallic and Sirian technology - which on the other hand should have 75% on the non-Gallic ID, since both Gallic, Rheinland, Corsairs, etc. technology is more or less based onto Alliance/Coalition tech.

Ever try to plug in a USA PC into a UK outlet? How about reading the resistor codes from civilian circuit components to military ones? Even most cars here are reconverted from Europe standards to American ones. How about incompatible programming codes and Software controls? Every single one of these aspects is a perfectly logical for technology, over a period of 400 years in the new Sirus sector to develop its own distinction.

Yes, a PC power supply has a switch in the back to make it work in both places
Yes they have alternative program Gui overlays that allow incompatible software to communicate.

Still with all that, the ship incompatibility makes sense.

If you were here years ago, as I presume you were under a different name, because you seem to know about the overpowered setups people would have from mixing tech. So I agree with you there. The IDs became meaningless when metagaming players, would produce a psudo RP chat, already pre planned, by giving the tech to players who wanted the tech. They didn't want the existing ID nerf to spoil their fun so by using the same psudo chatroom RP they obtained the official faction ID. Nerf gone, weapons to full power. This allowed those players to attack the enemies, of that faction unhindered, while the original Faction itself, could claim it bears no responsibility for the actions of "those darn rebels." It became such an epidemic that you had fleets of so called "Independent tech owners," waging hour long battles against each other while both official factions twiddles their thumbs and accused each other of even more metagaming. It's sounds complicated but it happened a lot.

On to the Tech Nerf. Every single tech nerf I find justified because there will always, always be a player base that just wants to break the faction rules while getting their daily dose of pewpew...who are actually players IN a faction who don't want the consequences of their actions to fall upon the guild leaders who made it possible in the first place. There are also people that just willy nilly buy mixed tech without telling anyone in hopes of getting the upper hand ( Ala Corvo ) and that caused enough issues as it is.

Having nerfs on the ID and Tech help limit that.

[Fluffyball]

Why not to make just two core statuses then?

100% core for rightful tech users and 80% core for the ones, who aren't supposed to use that tech - all based on the ID? Why to make ship-comp, while we could just do a thing, if one item does not belong to the ID, core falls automatically to 80% because of that thing.

90% core is for people who have basic access to the tech (vide Xeno-Zoners or Ageira-APM) and 100% if both factions agreed in RP to give full access to the tech (vide certain Corsair-Hogosha ships). I mean, some tech nerfs do not have much sense nowadays, since Kusari corps are still nerfed against Bretonia (10%), despite both being at peace and having warmed up relations a bit. There also was situation in which one purely civilian ship gave 90% core to the Pirate ID, out of all sudden.

Isn't that more simple than having ship-comp?

Ever try to plug in a USA PC into a UK outlet?

There are cord fliers for such things.

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[Sylvie557]

I'm not arguing against you, but Ship Compatibility makes a lot more sense than ID Compatibility.

you're not arguing as you're not actually providing the reasoning behind your opposing statement

The reasoning is so blatantly apparent I didn't think it needed to be said. ID is a OORP construct. Technology compatibility is not.

The ID itself is an ooRP construct sure but when you use an ID the implications are you fly for a certain faction and said faction only have the ability to maintain ships commonly used by said faction and their allies.

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|| Aoi Iseijin |Aoi || Junker Marauders JM|- || MEMES- ||

[Fluffyball]

The ID itself is an ooRP construct sure but when you use an ID the implications are you fly for a certain faction and said faction only have the ability to maintain ships commonly used by said faction and their allies.

If it was ooRP construct, it wouldn't be an inRP items for other players (vide scanning scenario and you being Freelancer IFF, BUT you have e.g. LSF ID, thus you must be kicked away/destroyed even though no crime has been witnessed by foreign military/police). Only Wild ID is such an ooRP construct at the moment.

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[Antonio]

Or as I stated above bring back the rule where it was disallowed to use any non-faction ships or tech belonging to your ID except generic ones without RPing with the faction to gain a permission on the forums, and remove the nerf altogether.

Or keep the nerf, but still make that rule. In that case, simple number fixing on the nerf would be okay (no more 10% cores).

[Fluffyball]

Or as I stated above bring back the rule where it was disallowed to use any non-faction ships or tech belonging to your ID except generic ones without RPing with the faction to gain a permission on the forums, and remove the nerf altogether.

This rule is enforced by all five houses, two unlawful nations and other major factions - all through the House Laws. If they find you with their equipment, you are getting their stuff confiscated, being fined or even destroyed. In more extreme cases, FR5 from their bases/space.

The only nerf I can't understand was 90% on house corporate ships as a Freelancer. It's not like Freelancer would be flying 5kers anyway.

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[Karst]

What if I fly lets say a freelancer id with lets say any kusari hf/vhf and rheinland plasmas? So that I get a tiny shotgunning vhf that goes anywhere he wants. Balanced? Nah. The entire reason why ship based nerf was introduced as opposed to ID based nerf is that exact situation, multiplied by probably a hundred despite the effort in removing guns that were balanced to specific ships. Some factions might have a less restrictive ID that will allow them to create weird combos. So we can remove ship nerf, then the solution is that we basically puretech every faction out there (which is fine to me actually). If that is ok consider it removed.

It's not ok though, because a thread will immediately pop up asking to either return to shipnerf or loosen the restrictions. We can't loosen the restrictions due to balance issues, so the only solution therefore is to keep flip flopping on the issue.

[...]

Guns are balanced the same way in terms of regions. So guns mounted on a ship from a different region can have wildly different result. Some might be ok, others might be bad, and others might be amazing. This will always be the case as long as some vhfs underperform/overperform in comparison to others due mainly to their shape which is a non trivial thing to fix (requires modeller who will work to exact specifications on dozens of models, and also throwing away various vanilla designs).

So from me this is still a no, sorry.

This argument is based on the assumption that certain guns are so much better than others that they can significantly affect the effectiveness of a ship. This is not the case, maybe in 85-86, but certainly not in the last years.
Guns are not balanced in terms of regions: their power usage is determined by their dps and projectile speed, so their performance is uniform.

Yes, the largest difference the absence of ship-based technerf would make is for freelancers, but as freelancers only get 75% with non-civilian tech this is hardly relevant. 75% fighters are pretty much unusable, but if you were to use them, you would simply perform only 75% as well as a no nerf ship due to the aforementioned sameness of guns.

While it's true that unlike guns, some VHFs underperform/overperform in comparison to others, this is unrelated to my argument, as they would overperform or underperform just the same with different types of guns.

I would really like to hear if there is even a single example of a genuinely overpowered (fighter) tech combo currently prevented by ship-based technerf that would be viable with only ID-based technerf.

Edit: Sorry but it sounds like you're a little out of touch with balance on the server at the moment. Kusari HFs would not be able to mount Class 8 Rheinland plasmas because normal HFs only have Class 7 slots, while Kusari VHFs are among the worst in the game.

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[Adam_Spire]

Why not to make just two core statuses then?

100% core for rightful tech users and 80% core for the ones, who aren't supposed to use that tech - all based on the ID? Why to make ship-comp, while we could just do a thing, if one item does not belong to the ID, core falls automatically to 80% because of that thing.

90% core is for people who have basic access to the tech (vide Xeno-Zoners or Ageira-APM) and 100% if both factions agreed in RP to give full access to the tech (vide certain Corsair-Hogosha ships). I mean, some tech nerfs do not have much sense nowadays, since Kusari corps are still nerfed against Bretonia (10%), despite both being at peace and having warmed up relations a bit. There also was situation in which one purely civilian ship gave 90% core to the Pirate ID, out of all sudden.

Isn't that more simple than having ship-comp?

More simple Yes.
More realistic, no.

We've both seen how the player base loves to cross the line and do anything they can to get away with it.

You can tell a child to sit down at the dinner table, who doesn't want to sit down. Telling them to sit at the table or no supper, they will sit. They want to stand, but remain sitting none the less.
You pull the chair out and wait for that same child to sit at the dinner table and they will, at most, take the food and sit in the other room. That's a problem

Physical restraints must be made when there, again, is a player base that will not play by the rules. Especially when they are long standing players looking for an exploit.

To what Antonio said, I think I started playing when they were just about changing all this. If I remember correctly, independent players were angry that faction players had the tech advantage when in a battle. We didn't have mining ratio restrictions and mining turrets then either. I think this would be too vanilla for most.

[Antonio]

This rule is enforced by all five houses, two unlawful nations and other major factions - all through the House Laws. If they find you with their equipment, you are getting their stuff confiscated, being fined or even destroyed. In more extreme cases, FR5 from their bases/space.

The only nerf I can't understand was 90% on house corporate ships as a Freelancer. It's not like Freelancer would be flying 5kers anyway.

No it's not. I'm talking about actual rules where you get sanctioned or bastilled if you took stuff without permission.