Ship-based technerf thread one billion

[Antonio]

Or remove the ship and ID technerfs altogether and bring back "can't fly anything that doesn't belong to your faction without RPing for it" rule, which made alot more interactions and was overall awesome. I never understood the purpose behind technerfs.

I remember back in the day when I had a merc flying for Navy and GMG (still do actually), killed 100+ people for them and earned magma hammers on my fighter, a Liberty gunboat, GMG bomber instead of Roc and an extra Karasu, all rped on the forums and earned the hard way. When the technerfs came all I could do is throw them away and go back to roc and generic guns. I am sure there are many more people with such examples.

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[Coin]

I'm not arguing against you, but Ship Compatibility makes a lot more sense than ID Compatibility.

you're not arguing as you're not actually providing the reasoning behind your opposing statement

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[Tyria Regalia]

I'm not arguing against you, but Ship Compatibility makes a lot more sense than ID Compatibility.

you're not arguing as you're not actually providing the reasoning behind your opposing statement

The reasoning is so blatantly apparent I didn't think it needed to be said. ID is a OORP construct. Technology compatibility is not.

[Fluffyball]

Or remove the ship and ID technerfs altogether and bring back "can't fly anything that doesn't belong to your faction without RPing for it" rule, which made alot more interactions and was overall awesome. I never understood the purpose behind technerfs.

I believe it was made to stop players from having the OP combo on their ships. One group are people who actually RP out these things, the other problem are the people who do not give a single crap about roleplay and later are starting a sh**storm on the forums on how they were killed.

As for ID nerf, I agree with all ID restrictions, because they are justified. The shipcompability is however something that I could never understand, beside obvious differences between Gallic and Sirian technology - which on the other hand should have 75% on the non-Gallic ID, since both Gallic, Rheinland, Corsairs, etc. technology is more or less based onto Alliance/Coalition tech.

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[pillow]

Make Carbines the same thing as Debs tech-wise.
I want my Scimitar with Flashpoints and Carbines back.
):

[Alestone]

I'm not arguing against you, but Ship Compatibility makes a lot more sense than ID Compatibility.

you're not arguing as you're not actually providing the reasoning behind your opposing statement

The reasoning is so blatantly apparent I didn't think it needed to be said. ID is a OORP construct. Technology compatibility is not.

Something of a straw man argument, though. After all, Sirius Civilian is a technology tree, and it works everywhere except Gallia. Unless you want to restrict the system even more, tech compatibility is a very pick and choose set of restrictions.

[Tyria Regalia]

Civilian is third party replacement parts, built to be compatible with a variety of things, but inferior to the more refined components shipmakers build for their craft.

[Haste]

Right, yeah. I fully support getting rid of this. The only valid use(s) for ship nerf in my opinion is restricting Gallic - Sirian mixes and perhaps other similar situations (Coalition comes to mind, for one).

Any balance issues that may arise (I sincerely doubt they'll be plentiful) can in all likelihood be fixed in other ways or have other root causes to begin with. Even in the past they could've been, honestly. The only good examples ever mentioned were ship-gun combinations like the Sammael Odin. Why was that OP? Because both Sammaels and the Odin were, frankly, objectively above-average if not flat-out "great" (and thus should've been altered individually - by now the Odin's shield hitbox is a fair bit larger while Sammaels are nothing like they were in .86, for example).

As Alley pointed out, though, I suspect it's quite tricky to properly get rid of shipcompat. Primarily as it's, nowadays, used for things such as Battleship Scanners. Guess I'll just throw this into the Dev chat and see what happens.

[Blodo]

Tech combinations that would work without ship-based technerf include for example: Council guns on Bretonian lawful ships (would be 90% on BAF ID), Rheinland lawful guns on IMG ships (would be 90% on ALG ID), or Red Hessian guns on Z series ships (would be 90% with Molly ID).

What if I fly lets say a freelancer id with lets say any kusari hf/vhf and rheinland plasmas? So that I get a tiny shotgunning vhf that goes anywhere he wants. Balanced? Nah. The entire reason why ship based nerf was introduced as opposed to ID based nerf is that exact situation, multiplied by probably a hundred despite the effort in removing guns that were balanced to specific ships. Some factions might have a less restrictive ID that will allow them to create weird combos. So we can remove ship nerf, then the solution is that we basically puretech every faction out there (which is fine to me actually). If that is ok consider it removed.

It's not ok though, because a thread will immediately pop up asking to either return to shipnerf or loosen the restrictions. We can't loosen the restrictions due to balance issues, so the only solution therefore is to keep flip flopping on the issue.

The ship-based technerf plugin was written by Kazinsal and I suspect mainly implemented because it seemed cool that such a thing was possible.

To tell you the truth we specifically asked him to write this, because of the above mentioned issue. He hated writing it, he did it anyway, it was a good thing that he did despite the fact that the code could do with some improvements.

At the very latest with Haste's universal fighter gun efficiency formula, any argument based on balance is out the window as guns are all balanced the same way - fighter guns, that is.
Ship-based technerf is mainly relevant for fighters since bigger ships either do not need different equipment tech (transports, bombers) and or are highly restricted by ID-based technerf anyway (caps).

Guns are balanced the same way in terms of regions. So guns mounted on a ship from a different region can have wildly different result. Some might be ok, others might be bad, and others might be amazing. This will always be the case as long as some vhfs underperform/overperform in comparison to others due mainly to their shape which is a non trivial thing to fix (requires modeller who will work to exact specifications on dozens of models, and also throwing away various vanilla designs).

So from me this is still a no, sorry.

[Sabru]

If getting rid of it is a big problem, even if devs like @Haste support getting rid of it, then perhaps get someone to fix the thing into something thst people could accept more believably and readily.

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