' Wrote:1. Docking with player ships is possible and has been done
2. All issues with the carrier moving, logging off etc have been solved. There are no issues with it.
3. The developers refused it
1 and 2 I know. 3 I did not.
Why did the developers refuse the idea?
It would be nice to see Igiss in this thread. (If he is not too busy.:))
I have seen the dev forum where this was discussed, and while its not impossible, and it can be done after a decent amount of work, but it has been decided to put the idea on hold. Not due to technical limitations, but rather implimentation.
Think about it, there is a battle taking place, one side has a carrier and the other does not. The side with the carier keep docking to re-arm and repair (Which they would be able to do, no removing this feature) while the other side has nothing.
According to the rules docking during a fight is not permited, and I don't think many would argu that rule or its purpose. Now however we have a player flown vessel that is designed to be docked with at any time. Can you see the effect this might have on the server landscape? What the admins and devs are debating, and why they have put the feature off, is how to include it saftley.
This feature might require a massive re-think of several basic server rules. With the new ID rules on the way I am sure everyone can understand why no-one wants to overdue changes. This feature stands a chance, but not affter careful thinking.
As for changing carrier loadouts to turn them into larger slightly better armed repair ships, I would vote a no if put to a poll. The repair ship provides one heck of an edge in a major fight, but it is vulnerable and easy to destroy. You armour and arm that thing any further and you risk turing the side with the vessel into an unstopable force. Heavy balancing would be required, which would then need to be redone again if docking is added. Overall I feel that it would be simpler to keep the carriers as is and wait for bigger far more fruitful ideas.
' Wrote:I have seen the dev forum where this was discussed, and while its not impossible, and it can be done after a decent amount of work, but it has been decided to put the idea on hold. Not due to technical limitations, but rather implimentation.
Think about it, there is a battle taking place, one side has a carrier and the other does not. The side with the carier keep docking to re-arm and repair (Which they would be able to do, no removing this feature) while the other side has nothing.
According to the rules docking during a fight is not permited, and I don't think many would argu that rule or its purpose. Now however we have a player flown vessel that is designed to be docked with at any time. Can you see the effect this might have on the server landscape? What the admins and devs are debating, and why they have put the feature off, is how to include it saftley.
This feature might require a massive re-think of several basic server rules. With the new ID rules on the way I am sure everyone can understand why no-one wants to overdue changes. This feature stands a chance, but not affter careful thinking.
As for changing carrier loadouts to turn them into larger slightly better armed repair ships, I would vote a no if put to a poll. The repair ship provides one heck of an edge in a major fight, but it is vulnerable and easy to destroy. You armour and arm that thing any further and you risk turing the side with the vessel into an unstopable force. Heavy balancing would be required, which would then need to be redone again if docking is added. Overall I feel that it would be simpler to keep the carriers as is and wait for bigger far more fruitful ideas.
I see what you are saying, a re-think of the rules is needed.
Perhaps later on, when people have the time and patience to commit themselves to such a task of re-writing the rules and re-balancing, we may see player docking implemented.
' Wrote:Because despite having 100+ players on the server 24/7, people are only rarely able to work in large groups here. You shouldnt force a decent ship class into uselessness because they cant find other ships to travel with.
And it would still be a larger target than any gunboat in the mod. The liberty assault carrier is larger than any other battleship in the mod, perhaps with the exception of the rheinland battleship (though i think it is bigger) - the only thing that actually makes it useful is the fact that it has more armor and more firepower than the liberty dreadnaught.
Likewise, the new order light carrier is the size of an osiris but has less armor and only cruiser level shielding, the only thing that keeps it up to par is a very large number (16 or 18, i think?) of cruiser turrets, making it about equivalent to a battlecruiser in power.
My question in response, is why do you want to change something (for the worse) that doesnt need to be changed? Carriers are fine as-is, with 4.85 we'll only have two of them in the mod - one for liberty and one for the order; one of those is a battleship, the other is a battlecruiser.
Dont fix what aint broke =)
I dont really see it as for the worse. I see it as changeing a ship that is never used except for an RP piece into a more useful RP piece.
Since most dont RP alone they would be able to help out thier wingmen. Nexthing it might as well be a battleship. There has to be some functional difference in a carrier and a battle ship. The best thing to do is Uber bots and bats to despence. also the loot from such a kill would be a advantageous thing in battle.
But in the end if it ruins any of your carrier flying characters then sorry as IU dont have one and will likely never will.
' Wrote:I have seen the dev forum where this was discussed, and while its not impossible, and it can be done after a decent amount of work, but it has been decided to put the idea on hold. Not due to technical limitations, but rather implimentation.
Think about it, there is a battle taking place, one side has a carrier and the other does not. The side with the carier keep docking to re-arm and repair (Which they would be able to do, no removing this feature) while the other side has nothing.
According to the rules docking during a fight is not permited, and I don't think many would argu that rule or its purpose. Now however we have a player flown vessel that is designed to be docked with at any time. Can you see the effect this might have on the server landscape? What the admins and devs are debating, and why they have put the feature off, is how to include it saftley.
This feature might require a massive re-think of several basic server rules. With the new ID rules on the way I am sure everyone can understand why no-one wants to overdue changes. This feature stands a chance, but not affter careful thinking.
As for changing carrier loadouts to turn them into larger slightly better armed repair ships, I would vote a no if put to a poll. The repair ship provides one heck of an edge in a major fight, but it is vulnerable and easy to destroy. You armour and arm that thing any further and you risk turing the side with the vessel into an unstopable force. Heavy balancing would be required, which would then need to be redone again if docking is added. Overall I feel that it would be simpler to keep the carriers as is and wait for bigger far more fruitful ideas.
If they were dockable then I would not want it to be a giant repair ship.
as for the rules a clause which states docking with players is not considered retreating and shooting players launching from players is not considered dock killing. If its more complex than that let me know, I'll fix it. That only took me two seconds.
I am glad you are so quick scornstar! This is messing with sensitive stuff. 10 rules might not be hard to remeber but when you start to adding clauses things will start getting confusing. There are already allot of those. Lets not add any more for what is only one ship. When the day comes that discovery has more vessels designated "carrier" to be added, it will be worth the time to make them something other then a battleship with a different name, for now the Liberty carrier is balanced.
Quote:I dont really see it as for the worse. I see it as changeing a ship that is never used except for an RP piece into a more useful RP piece.
Scorn... THINK about what you're saying here.
There are reasons you never see carriers:
1. There is, currently, only one carrier-type ship in the mod; that's the liberty assault carrier.
2. That specific carrier is more expensive than the liberty dreadnaught, is much larger and easier to hit, and only has slightly more firepower/armor.
3. The liberty carrier, due to it's size, is nearly impossible to dock into tradelanes.
4. It's a rather ugly imported model that nobody really likes.
People dont use it because it isnt useful - the ship itself is pretty powerful - with more turrets/firepower, and more armor, than the liberty dreadnaught. The problems come with it's size and lack of convenience; and to a lesser degree the fact that it's an ugly scrap heap.
Carriers are not something available to every faction, if they were you'd see a lot more of them; I guarantee it. They're meant to be rare because only a select few groups in Sirius even have the technology (or money/resources/shipyards) to build full fledged carriers - most other groups simply use their battleships which hold small numbers of fighters/bombers anyways.
Quote:Since most dont RP alone they would be able to help out thier wingmen. Nexthing it might as well be a battleship. There has to be some functional difference in a carrier and a battle ship. The best thing to do is Uber bots and bats to despence. also the loot from such a kill would be a advantageous thing in battle.
So you want to make a fairly decent shipclass useless by forcing it to rely on fleet battle to be effective? Seriously?
Is this some vendetta against the order getting their own carrier or what? There's really no reason to nerf the entire shipclass when only two ships of the type are in the game to begin with (once 4.85 hits).
Quote:But in the end if it ruins any of your carrier flying characters then sorry as IU dont have one and will likely never will.
Then dont make suggestions for them =)
Never know who's toes you're going to be stepping on when you try to make changes to things that dont directly apply to you, or that you have no experience with. No offense, but anyone else who's been planning for the order carrier for as long as i have (probably nobody) would give the same response. I dont want a ship that I've not only saved up money for but written pages of RP and done hours worth of graphic work to have the ship class suddenly ripped out from under me and turned into an overglorified CSV.
Personally, I'm fine with carriers being, mechanically-speaking, the same as battlecruisers/battleships for combat purposes. If Igiss feels a mechanic change for the shipclass is necessary, we can try adding NPC escorts for carriers only - that as well has been done in other mods via equippable items.
I think the npc wingman system is a good idea. Instead of carriers being an oversized battleship, make their main armament be a squadron of npc fighters and bombers that launch from the carrier, with a couple of various weaker than dready weapons for self defense. Then you can make them player dockable as well, but make it so that only non caps can dock with them, and make a high rep with the carriers appropiate faction needed to be able to buy stuff from it.
Personaly I love carriers (having served on one and built one in RL) BUT... in Disco that may prove to be more of a burden than a blessing. The main reason carriers are great in real life and in most space games/shows is this: There's plentiful deep space (or water) to fly your massive ship and in war it pays to bring fighters/bombers with you...
With that said, in disco, unless your stationed towards the outer-rim, most systems are crowded as is. Add a carrier to NY or New Berlin and you'll have some trouble. I dont't mean you wont have enough space to fly them, but unless they have a fast cruise speed or FTL drives, I hate to see them block up an entier jumphole or trade-lane. Also don't forget the systems in Disco that are 80% or more asteriod fields. I have enough trouble trying to fly through them in a Heavy Tanker or Destroyer, I do not envy the guy who has to man the helm of a carrier through a dense field of rocks.
Don't get me wrong, if there's a way to add carriers to Disco, so it will remind us of the Wing Commander games, plus give us the ability to dock; would be extreemly sweet, but alas this would come at a price.
As for the weapons, I've got 2 words: flak guns.
[Yes, some carriers have missile turrets on them today, so it would be realistic to add some to a space carrier.]
Try flying through the fields of rhienland in a RBS... Its not fun, Then again, the RBS really is only for defence. Those nomads that controlled the navy had no tactical experience whatsoever.
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