' Wrote:He has a Roc because the alternative is a Barghest. The Barghest fits its role, the Roc fits another. Same reason I maintain a Waran and a Roc.
It's Sindy. He can SNAC Liberators in his Barghest... All bombers only have one role for Sindy: pwnage.
Quote:There is a lot of hand waving and gesturing coming off of your off topic rant, on top of some very personal finger pointing that I am more than happy to exploit in order to undermine your argument. Your entire argument, frankly, reeks of hand wringing sandwich board doomspeak.
Which I do not like. So here I come to spit and curse.
Personal finger pointing? At whom? I was making a very broad spectrum finger point. I don't mind you undermining my arguments as long as you bring valuable information to the table, which you seem to have done.
I wish I had a sandwich board... maybe then people would take me seriously.
Quote:1) Who the duce are these "all those" people you're referring to? If you're going to supply us with an argument as to why you feel that the vessel is unsatisfactory in its current form I'd like to have a greater example of this plague which is sweeping Discovery.
Okay you got me there, I can't pull a long list off the top of my head, especially without being accused of trial by forums.
Quote:Last time I looked out the window the blight was in the form of Tridents and Falcattas.
Lulz, Tridentes. They're possibly the easiest ship to kill ever. I was flying my vigilante Roc yesterday, coming back from a training in Conn. I got attacked out of the blue by an Outcast Tridente. Me and my wingman beat the crap out of him, neither one of us had many regens (he had 0, I had 12), he had no ammo, and the Tridente had two missiles. Blight? More like easy money for Mercenaries... Tridente's might be numerous but they're terrible ships... I'd sooner fight one of those solo than a Roc or Eagle. As for Falcata's, I haven't noticed as much of them, if anything I'd say there's less of them now.
Quote:2) How is the Eagle/Roc "superior" to other ships? The Roc is rutting enormous and does not respond well to being shot while the Eagle makes up for its deft handling by being a huge flimsy thing with a plant so weak that you can't fire the guns and keep a reading light on at the same time.
The Roc is only marginally larger than the Eagle, certainly not the biggest bomber out there. It's flat shape gives it a narrow front profile. It does have a wide wingspan, but those wings are very thin. With a fitting hitbox, it's roughly the same size as a BHG Bomber rotated 90 degrees. Most bombers have their torpedo mounts rotated 180 degrees on the x axis, meaning they are upside down. This limits their firing arc from shooting targets above them. The Roc, however, has torpedo hardpoints that are rightside up. When tested in conneticuit, I found this gives the Roc an advantage over other bombers by extending the angle which it can fire at a target passing over top of it by a significant amount when compared to the Falcata. (I compare the Roc to the Falcata a lot because I consider Civi and BW ships to be rivals)
I don't know much about the turning stats of the ships, but from experience fighting the Roc, it's deffinately faster turning than the Falcata. I find myself having to pull off fancy turn manouvers just to keep up with a Roc that's turning normally.
As for the Eagle... I don't even know how to begin arguing that. It was the fastest turning VHF in Vanilla, and I assume it's stats haven't been changed. I don't know, I haven't checked. It has a very small front profile compared with other VHFs (House VHFs don't count, because they're VHFs in an HFs body). The Eagle even turns faster than some HFs, such as the Greyhound. It does have a small powerplant, but no one shoots continuously. Everytime you turn your power plant gets a chance to recover, I find that unless your ship is faster than your opponents, power plant means little. Oh wait... I guess that's your problem there. The Eagle is reknowned for being an excellent dogfighter, I can't believe I have to explain that <_<
Quote:3) The reason you do not see everyone and their mum flying them is because they are not the end all be all best. There are tons of extremely strong alternatives to those ships
Give it time...
Quote:4) There is no such thing as a "civilian" ship in Discovery. 80% of the ships in this mod are balanced with various pros and cons which enable their pilot to take them into a fight with the best possible chance of coming out on top based upon pilot skill rather than ship stats. The Eagle and Roc may have the word "civilian" stamped on them, but yes, they are going to go toe to toe with a Guardian and the better pilot is going to come out on top. Because this is a spaceship videogame.
This much I know. I'd probably present the same argument if I was in your position too. This isn't just about PvP, though, believe it or not.
' Wrote:It's Sindy. He can SNAC Liberators in his Barghest... All bombers only have one role for Sindy: pwnage.
Personal finger pointing? At whom? I was making a very broad spectrum finger point. I don't mind you undermining my arguments as long as you bring valuable information to the table, which you seem to have done.
I wish I had a sandwich board... maybe then people would take me seriously.
Okay you got me there, I can't pull a long list off the top of my head, especially without being accused of trial by forums.
Lulz, Tridentes. They're possibly the easiest ship to kill ever. I was flying my vigilante Roc yesterday, coming back from a training in Conn. I got attacked out of the blue by an Outcast Tridente. Me and my wingman beat the crap out of him, neither one of us had many regens (he had 0, I had 12), he had no ammo, and the Tridente had two missiles. Blight? More like easy money for Mercenaries... Tridente's might be numerous but they're terrible ships... I'd sooner fight one of those solo than a Roc or Eagle. As for Falcata's, I haven't noticed as much of them, if anything I'd say there's less of them now.
The Roc is only marginally larger than the Eagle, certainly not the biggest bomber out there. It's flat shape gives it a narrow front profile. It does have a wide wingspan, but those wings are very thin. With a fitting hitbox, it's roughly the same size as a BHG Bomber rotated 90 degrees. Most bombers have their torpedo mounts rotated 180 degrees on the x axis, meaning they are upside down. This limits their firing arc from shooting targets above them. The Roc, however, has torpedo hardpoints that are rightside up. When tested in conneticuit, I found this gives the Roc an advantage over other bombers by extending the angle which it can fire at a target passing over top of it by a significant amount when compared to the Falcata. (I compare the Roc to the Falcata a lot because I consider Civi and BW ships to be rivals)
I don't know much about the turning stats of the ships, but from experience fighting the Roc, it's deffinately faster turning than the Falcata. I find myself having to pull off fancy turn manouvers just to keep up with a Roc that's turning normally.
As for the Eagle... I don't even know how to begin arguing that. It was the fastest turning VHF in Vanilla, and I assume it's stats haven't been changed. I don't know, I haven't checked. It has a very small front profile compared with other VHFs (House VHFs don't count, because they're VHFs in an HFs body). The Eagle even turns faster than some HFs, such as the Greyhound. It does have a small powerplant, but no one shoots continuously. Everytime you turn your power plant gets a chance to recover, I find that unless your ship is faster than your opponents, power plant means little. Oh wait... I guess that's your problem there. The Eagle is reknowned for being an excellent dogfighter, I can't believe I have to explain that <_<
Give it time...
This much I know. I'd probably present the same argument if I was in your position too. This isn't just about PvP, though, believe it or not.
How about instead of nerfing a bomber we up the rest?
' Wrote:The Roc is only marginally larger than the Eagle, certainly not the biggest bomber out there. It's flat shape gives it a narrow front profile. It does have a wide wingspan, but those wings are very thin. With a fitting hitbox, it's roughly the same size as a BHG Bomber rotated 90 degrees.
I'm on my mac so I don't have access to HardCMP but you're incorrect. Its the largest of the conventional bombers. It's larger than a Praetorian, Taiidan, IMG, GC, you name it. The only bombers that outsize it are the Waran, Barg and Faf. The large top/bottom profile on top of the rather generous boom catching front profile is a huge detriment. The same one that the Broadsword suffers from. The Broadsword has a small front profile but in passing jousts the huge surface area presented in passing makes it a snac magnet.
The BHG Bomber is its own beast. Extra gun aside it's not a very good ship to use for comparisons given its very curious shape and the advantages/disadvantages provided by the same.
' Wrote:Most bombers have their torpedo mounts rotated 180 degrees on the x axis, meaning they are upside down. This limits their firing arc from shooting targets above them. The Roc, however, has torpedo hardpoints that are rightside up. When tested in conneticuit, I found this gives the Roc an advantage over other bombers by extending the angle which it can fire at a target passing over top of it by a significant amount when compared to the Falcata. (I compare the Roc to the Falcata a lot because I consider Civi and BW ships to be rivals)
I don't know much about the turning stats of the ships, but from experience fighting the Roc, it's deffinately faster turning than the Falcata. I find myself having to pull off fancy turn manouvers just to keep up with a Roc that's turning normally.
It is faster, but its response isn't higher. When you finish with the math its something like it finishes a turn a quarter of a second faster than a Falc. It trades off sustainability for that being considerably weaker than the falc.
The Roc does suffer from firing arc limitations, it carries a number of dead zones across its lateral line that cause all manner of in-opportune hangups. Not nearly as bad as the Upholder, but the freedom of choosing firing arcs is nowhere are nice as, say, the IMG bomber which has almost universal range of motion.
So while the Roc is very slightly faster than the Falc, its weaker and larger and carries the same handicap the falc does in presenting a larger target area around the rearmost portion of the ship for nailing in chase fights. Actually more, given the huge surface area provided by the wings. In a joust on the approach the Falc would be at a slight disadvantage given the slightly larger centralized target area while the civi would be at a disadvantage in passing given its larger topside surface area.
' Wrote:As for the Eagle... I don't even know how to begin arguing that. It was the fastest turning VHF in Vanilla, and I assume it's stats haven't been changed. I don't know, I haven't checked. It has a very small front profile compared with other VHFs (House VHFs don't count, because they're VHFs in an HFs body). The Eagle even turns faster than some HFs, such as the Greyhound. It does have a small powerplant, but no one shoots continuously. Everytime you turn your power plant gets a chance to recover, I find that unless your ship is faster than your opponents, power plant means little. Oh wait... I guess that's your problem there. The Eagle is reknowned for being an excellent dogfighter, I can't believe I have to explain that <_<
Give it time...
This much I know. I'd probably present the same argument if I was in your position too. This isn't just about PvP, though, believe it or not.
I don't have a position. I've almost entirely left disco. I'm just posting here because the thread was brought to my attention. Nor do I have or fly a Xeno any longer. I don't own an Eagle nor a Civi. I fly far more haxed ships like the Taiidan and IMG bomber in addition to the RT.
The Eagle's stats have changed. It was nerfed to compensate for the loss of vanilla explosive vulnerability. You say that it has a small front profile in comparison to other VHFs but that house VHFs don't count, which leaves me with the Viper MKII, Coalition ships and some other random vessels. Should we use the Raven Talon then?
They Greyhoud is also a poor example, the ship is extremely tiny and responsive for its heavy plant and four class 10 guns. The Greyhound is a flipping terror as any BAF pilot can attest, the thing simply does not die and can dish out some horrible firepower. Actually it has a stronger plant than the Eagle, while we're on the subject.
You don't need to explain that its an excellent dogfighter. It is. It's a very good ship that can do fantastic things in the proper hands. However its the furthest thing from being an "I win" button. It was balanced by individuals with far more reason than either you or I possess with aims towards producing a vessel which can compete, but not dominate, in any house given its universal utilization by a very large percentage of Discovery's factions. Both lawful and unlawful.
The qualities it possesses can be matched by virtually every heavy fighter out there. Carbon copy JihadJoe and put him in an Eagle and a Guardian and let him fight himself. Or throw a Wrath in there, or a Templar, or a Raven's Talon, or a Viper MKII. They've all got their respective strengths and weaknesses.
I liked the comment about the light plant only being a handicap because the ship turns faster than it regenerates, that was very tongue in cheek. Next time someone says that battleship plants need a boost I'll comment that their ship needs a turning nerf because they're outracing their regen *grins*
' Wrote:I'm on my mac so I don't have access to HardCMP but you're incorrect. Its the largest of the conventional bombers. It's larger than a Praetorian, Taiidan, IMG, GC, you name it. The only bombers that outsize it are the Waran, Barg and Faf. The large top/bottom profile on top of the rather generous boom catching front profile is a huge detriment. The same one that the Broadsword suffers from. The Broadsword has a small front profile but in passing jousts the huge surface area presented in passing makes it a snac magnet.
Orly?
Sooo not the biggest bomber out there... This isn't all the bombers, just a few of them, and you can clearly see the Orchid, Challenger and Falcata are bigger, and the Roc is more similar size to the Upholder, Skhemet, Broadsword and Havoc.
Quote:So while the Roc is very slightly faster than the Falc, its weaker and larger and carries the same handicap the falc does in presenting a larger target area around the rearmost portion of the ship for nailing in chase fights. Actually more, given the huge surface area provided by the wings. In a joust on the approach the Falc would be at a slight disadvantage given the slightly larger centralized target area while the civi would be at a disadvantage in passing given its larger topside surface area.
See, above.
Quote:They Greyhoud is also a poor example, the ship is extremely tiny and responsive for its heavy plant and four class 10 guns. The Greyhound is a flipping terror as any BAF pilot can attest, the thing simply does not die and can dish out some horrible firepower. Actually it has a stronger plant than the Eagle, while we're on the subject.
Well, the Greyhound is very context sensitive in that regard. Put it against slow ships like Templars then yes, it kicks ass, but the Guardian and Eagle are much smaller and faster than the Templar. Even though it still kicks ass, especially in group fights, it's more evenly matched one on one. The Greyhound is also bigger than it used to be, and has less armour... though I'm gonna change the model so the pilot fits in the cockpit, I'll probably re-hardpoint it and hopefully make it a better hitbox that doesn't have a massive shield bubble which sticks out half the length of the ship behind it. I think the Greyhound needs a slight rebalance with it's new model.
Quote:You don't need to explain that its an excellent dogfighter. It is. It's a very good ship that can do fantastic things in the proper hands. However its the furthest thing from being an "I win" button. It was balanced by individuals with far more reason than either you or I possess with aims towards producing a vessel which can compete, but not dominate, in any house given its universal utilization by a very large percentage of Discovery's factions. Both lawful and unlawful.
The qualities it possesses can be matched by virtually every heavy fighter out there. Carbon copy JihadJoe and put him in an Eagle and a Guardian and let him fight himself. Or throw a Wrath in there, or a Templar, or a Raven's Talon, or a Viper MKII. They've all got their respective strengths and weaknesses.
Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned the Eagle... my main problem is with the Roc anyway <_< *conceeds*
Quote:I liked the comment about the light plant only being a handicap because the ship turns faster than it regenerates, that was very tongue in cheek. Next time someone says that battleship plants need a boost I'll comment that their ship needs a turning nerf because they're outracing their regen *grins*
I'll love you if you do x3
Wow, we're so off topic. Oh well, this thread has already been answered anyway.
' Wrote:0-499 posts: Your posts will be completely and utterly ignored. 500-999 posts: People will read your posts, but will never care for the content. 1000-2000 posts: Your posts will be read, your points may be considered, if you're lucky. 2001+ posts and custom title:Your opinion matters.
Even this wouldn't actualy be able to determine any form of balance. Different people fly with different styles, making certain ships far more applicable to the way they do things. For instance, I fly a guardian nicely. I like this ship, and I dislike the Avenger rather a lot. However there are people who I would stomp all over if they were flying a guardian, but put them in an avenger and they'd pound me into the dust.
Also, making carbon copies of my and then getting them to test ships against each other isn't a terribly good idea, as most fights would end with both versions of myself dead by double-torp. >.>
Quote:. I just said they shouldn't be better than faction guns.
Technically they ARE faction guns, But its not liek I want Sallies and Krakens,A Civillian Particle or neutron wouldnt be THAT strong, tho it might have a diffrent advantage.