I second all of the above and would like to add, that independent systems are free for everyone.
' Wrote:the theory is 100% perfect and i d basicly support deceiving with a false IFF.... BUT... why should this faction be allowed to do it? - when it makes just as much sense for an outcast to spill a corsair IFF to deceive when they invade gamma.
thats the problem there. - its like the deserting captain that joins the enemy. - yes, he "should" keep his ship and it makes sense in RP.. but we don t allow it.
Okay, another statement on this topic, because it is essential for us. You state that it does not make sense for an Outcast to move into Corsair territory with a Corsair tag to spy them out. So far this is correct. Corsairs and Outcasts are arch enemies, so it would not make sense AND there is no appropriate ID, which covers this case.
It is another thing with the MND and the Rheinland corporations: they are basically on the same side, if not allied. Due to the fact that the MND is a part of the Military and the Military is friendly with the companies, why should that be a problem?
I have already a character with MND ID and an ALG IFF. I knew that this is a sensitive topic, so I asked Virus the other day, if this would work. He told me that it is okay.
What do you fear? That some PVP whores or lolwutters will see our methods and copy it just to blast away players randomly? We have the Faction Laws for this case. Dennis or me can persecute the bad guys in this case, or you can sanction them.
About the Tag of MND vessles: "Chicken or what?? use the Rheinland Military Guard Tag!!" to buy the MND ID, one must be fully green to the Guard in any case, and that 5 or 6 /droprep wont kill anyone either.
i nither fear you, nor the abuse of the so called "loltutters". whyever you may think so. what i point out is a simple fact that you are ( may it be based on the RP of the specific ID or not ) - claiming to be excluded from a basic rule we have.
this rule is simple - it just says that your IFF should reflect your ID as closely as possible.
"6.2 Out of Roleplay (OORP):
In-game tag seen before the name must match the ID as closely as possible. It is not allowed to have the tag not match ID category. For example, it is prohibited to have 'Police' tag and 'Pirate' ID."
this is the rule. - and you are RIGHT... it clearly forbids contradictory tags such as pirate ( unlawful ) and police ( lawful ).
now - the point of that is that a player is to be made aware of what is expected of him -- in a very ooc manner ( out of character, not in RP ) - when its a trader and he is flying through space and spots a red player on the scanners at 9.5k - he ll click on it .. and he ll see "ahh, its the police, probably police guard... i m safe" - he d be very very unhappy to fly right into a pirate gunboat.
now, you d say - "deception is part of the secret service" - you re right... and YES, it does not hurt anyone ( much ) - but its asking for an exclusive right not to play by this rule. - thats all i point out.
i don t even say that its good or bad that you ask for an exclusive right about it.
again ...
"What do you fear? That some PVP whores or lolwutters will see our methods and copy it just to blast away players randomly? We have the Faction Laws for this case. Dennis or me can persecute the bad guys in this case, or you can sanction them."
i do wonder what makes you ask such a question. - did i give you the impression that i d like to come down on you waiting for just something to get someone sanctioned? - or did i give you the impression that i think that your faction "proposal" results in a bunch of trigger happy pvp focussed jerks just to satisfy their personal need for a blue message and boast their own ego?
you make a proposal - i point out what i think doesn t fit ( or in the positive cases - what fits )
deception works on two levels - one is the character level which is in RP and good - the other works on an ooc level - deception of the player. - which is NOT good. ( at least not good - unless other players have such a right, too )
we all dislike traders that fly around with police IFF ( and thats quite close, too - both lawful ) ... or bounty hunters that fly around with freelancer IFFs, ( cause we expect another behaviour from a bounty hunter and freelancer, especially when we re unlawful )
the IFF has a meaning and an effect. - but like i said - i understand the reasons behind it. - you should just be aware that you re asking for something "out of the ordinary" that other players are not allowed to do.
' Wrote:did i give you the impression that i d like to come down on you waiting for just something to get someone sanctioned?
No please, don't get me wrong. And excuse me, if I used too harsh words. I respect your opinion and you effort in the community, and I misinterpreted your statement it seems. You are the last one I expect a sanction from. From what I have seen, I think you are too mature to just go out and sanction somebody, even the jerks.
I am not asking for exclusive rights. All I do is proposing a kind of RP, which is not ordinary. I am aware of the 6.2, but I think we are in a grey zone here. If others come up with a similar proposal... why not? If it enriches the facets of server RP, I am all in for it.
ok - let me rephrase it less accusatory ( as it might have transpired )
i SUPPORT the use of civilian IFFs ( yes, i do ) - it is a good idea and i think it DOES fit. - but you should give each char INGAME enough descriptive roleplay to "tell a possible victim of circimstances" why that is so.
a good reason and a good story is one thing - explaining it ingame is another. - its a bit like the phantoms. - many of them have funny stories. - but when they meet an ignorant person ingame, they also need to work to roleplay their part. - if thats not happening, all thats left is confusion - which then leads to anger. ( and rants of players that have a low postcount usually )
you must also be aware that - if your faction becomes "prominent" and these tactics somewhat "known" that it reflects upon the rheinland cooperations.
so when someone is spotting for example a "repuclican" - they won t approach it light hearted anymore as if it was as civilian trader... but may well have their finger on the trigger - cause you never know.
with that in mind - sometimes - when people are approached and engaged in roleplay of possible hostile nature, they forget or fail to scan the ID. - what is left in mind though is the IFF, cause thats something they don t need to scan but thats just written on the screen.
so i CAN see trouble with victims that then PM you "why does a Republican attack me!?" - cause they have not scanned the ID ( maybe cause they were too busy trying to retreat with a belly full of 5k cardamine )
we do not encourage the "red is dead" mentality. - but people are often more prepared when they see "red" on the screen and less when they see "green" on the screen - which is the purpose of course. - but i d still predicts misunderstandings of greater magnitude that you ll have to solve on an indivicual basis.
' Wrote:i SUPPORT the use of civilian IFFs ( yes, i do ) - it is a good idea and i think it DOES fit. - but you should give each char INGAME enough descriptive roleplay to "tell a possible victim of circimstances" why that is so.
a good reason and a good story is one thing - explaining it ingame is another. - its a bit like the phantoms. - many of them have funny stories. - but when they meet an ignorant person ingame, they also need to work to roleplay their part. - if thats not happening, all thats left is confusion - which then leads to anger. ( and rants of players that have a low postcount usually )
At the moment I have absolutely no clue on how to design the recruitment/application process, but I want to thank you for this important hint. Now I know that there is need for implementing a suiting background for EVERY character without exceptions, to be abled to explain the IFF within proper RP. (Background of my character, ALG researcher)
' Wrote:you must also be aware that - if your faction becomes "prominent" and these tactics somewhat "known" that it reflects upon the rheinland cooperations.
The way I look at this topic: The IFF of a character is well chosen, therefore I treat the characters accordingly. When the RP of the person confuses me, or I need help to react properly within my role, I have a look at their ID.
I can bring up a good example from some Rheinland independent, who met my MND char in space once. I was flying around in Hamburg, without any visible hint of who I am. Only the ALG IFF and the MND ID. The officer came closer and asked who I am. I said my name and he turned around with the words "Meh, just some ALG escort pilot."
That shows me, that it IS possible with the proper counterparts, who play their role good.
' Wrote:we do not encourage the "red is dead" mentality. - but people are often more prepared when they see "red" on the screen and less when they see "green" on the screen - which is the purpose of course. - but i d still predicts misunderstandings of greater magnitude that you ll have to solve on an indivicual basis.
I want to ask you something: Am I responsible for the reaction of others or how they treat other players? I guess not. I can support them with the way I play my role myself, but I cannot do much more. THEY are responsible for their behaviour. I don't want to sound rude, but this is a roleplay server and I give a damn to the opinions of those who don't want to roleplay here.
On a sidenote: I changed the description of the transponder thing to this:
Quote:Transponder Description
Another effective way to prevent casual detection is the usage of counterfeit transponders. That means, that the agents are allowed to use Rheinland civilian transponder signals, namely Republican Shipping, Daumann Heavy Construction, Kruger Minerals and ALG Waste Disposal. However if using any Rheinland gear or ships, the agent is ordered to use a Rheinland Military Guard transponder, which indicates him to be a member of the MND.
Now the civilian transponders are only allowed on civilian ships and with civilian equipment. If you use ANY military equipment or ship, you need to use the Guard tag.
Very interesting - just in time, I just made one of these characters...
in a fafnir.
I would like to see more of these factions, especially the bretonian intelligence and kempeitai... I wish you best of luck with this awesome faction - I would attempt to join you in my attmept to be a first rheinland faction.
I will also attempt to do up a faction status for the Kempeitai.
On the subject of undercover agents, I think just naming your under cover characters without some fancy tag (like the Phantoms keep from doing) will help keep people from seeing what you are up to. IFF's wouldn't be necessary either if the ID would allow undercover agents to just have the ID and no IFF. Using random codenames with little to do with Rheinland would also help.
I guess it goes down to just RP after that (using the vernacular of enemy factions to confuse them, fake distress calls, etc.).
' Wrote:Regarding the ZOI of the MND ID, I would like to add something.
The ID should be allow operations Sirius wide, with a little clause.
Simply add the sentence "Only operateable in houses directly at war , or on the edge of war with Rheinland."
Right now that would be Liberty. period. Why would the MND want to go to Gamma or Alpha?
They are no threat anymore.
The Corsair war was won by Rheinland and unless a new threat raises, we wont care.
Hessians do the job verry effective, by keeping the Corsairs population verry low.
Also their life expectancy inside Rheinland, is about 5 minutes.
The MND ID should not be a simple PvP ID, but exactly the opposite of it.
As I have written in the "Rheinland Rules and Procedures", it is used as a stealth faction.
Reconnaissance.
Maybe some rare ambushes here and then and possibly the trader interdiction gets possible.
I dont want to have the MND as a sort of Privateers, sitting in Liberty all day long.
Esoecialy my [RM] boys. Rheinland has some verry boring times and this is why I want to pretend the "Lets go to liberty and annoy them" part.
I thought I would just throw this out there...
I would like to see the MND in the Omegas, Sigmas, and even anywhere on the border of Rheinland.
Why? Because if this faction is going to be a recon/intel gathering force, then why not go out trying to track down where those darn Hessians are coming from, or where the Wilde might be operating out of?
As long as the ID owners keep a low profile and act like a forward scout team, I see no reason why they shouldn't be limited to just Rheinland. Maybe the occasional visit to the Omicrons would be nice, just to show that Rheinland is interested in places beyond its reach...
' Wrote:Getting back to the ships list a minute, doesn't the ID allow freighters and the a-trans?
No. The MND ID only allows fighters, bombers and gunboats. Would be pointless anyways, because the ID states "Cannot trade".
' Wrote:On the subject of undercover agents, I think just naming your under cover characters without some fancy tag (like the Phantoms keep from doing) will help keep people from seeing what you are up to. IFF's wouldn't be necessary either if the ID would allow undercover agents to just have the ID and no IFF. Using random codenames with little to do with Rheinland would also help.
My point with this suggestion was the following: if you use some civilian tag, you Rheinland Military Guard reputation can also me at the maximum, without being seen by anyone. If we use no tag at all, the Guard rep will also be lower, restricting some items on the guards bases. That's no what I wanted, so I suggested the civilian tags. Alternatively we could just keep the guard rep somewhat below maximum, in order to be abled to buy the stuff.
' Wrote:I would like to see the MND in the Omegas, Sigmas, and even anywhere on the border of Rheinland.
Although I would appreciate to see such a development, I don't see it coming. From what I see, people fear factions to have extended ZoI for some reason, although it would suit.
I would like to mention that I will put the requirements for joining this faction very high, so only serious RPers can get in. Some of my fellow pilots from the RM already asked and that would be people I trust and who are abled to RP such characters, from what I have seen in Rheinland.
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