Balance

[Nadir]

I know what you mean by calling people uncomplimentary names, I was there on one occasion and I warned the ones using them. You're right about that but you have to let the one that looses to feel a little bad, after all they lost. I don't tend to call people names when I loose and also don't like to be called names when I win.

True one fighter isn't supposed to be able to do anything on it's own except annoy a battleship. But a group of fighters should be able to do something... and so on, not to repeat what should hurt what. But, using RP as an excuse... let me ask you a question: Suppose Igiss makes the Kraken 2 do 80000 hull damage and 40000 shield damage, fire 4.00 and use 0 energy and projectile speed of 1500m/s (I wish!:lol:) and I come with 3 of my GoR to Kusari and start killing everything in sight in a matter of seconds and say 'It's RP Outcasts have such a weapon! I CAN use it, I won't impose unRP limitations to my faction'. How would you feel?

I rest my case!

I'd say "Fine" - can we have a new beta please - SOON!:)

Until then avoid outcasts. You'd certainly hear me complaining about the unbalanced nature of the weapons but not that you're using them. If you were using Liberty weapons that happened to be accidently made ultra powerful, then yes, I'd be complaining it's out of RP.

Edit: I'd probably grumble and bitch about it quite a lot to fellow players too..:)but I would not expect you to stop using the unbalanced weapons.

You make good arguements and you have good points. Contradicting points but good ones nonetheless...

Now, i'm sure you've read my posts about the missiles and such. Are you grouping me in with the ones moaning, complaining and insulting in system chat? I hope not since I haven't done that. A single fighter shouldn't be able to hurt a battleship...that's only common sense.

Now a fighter should have a good fight against a gunboat...to at least be able to take the shield down (right now that doesn't even happen) It should be extremely hard to kill the GB and, if victorious, the victory would be that much sweeter for the fighter pilot. I do think that a wing of fighters whould have some chance..but no chance against the KNF missile gunboats.

I only have fighters, that's all I fly, they're what I enjoy flying. I can't go anywhere in game these days without encountering capital ships. Shall I stop playing, as you say the fighters should...until it's fixed? It will not be fixed, players are still going to use the biggest and baddest ships they can get their hands on.

When the GoR and Phantoms go 'hunting' (the 2 characters I use most) we bring a well rounded battlegroup in. Not a fleet of capital ships! And I am, as always, the fighter support. I can't go in any longer to these fights since there are no targets for me to fight...no fighters to take down. And I can't do anything to the missile boats either. That is ALL there is lately. When I don't last long enough to launch the first countermeasure when coming out of cruise....that sucks big time. I don't have enough CM's to last the first couple of volleys coming from your gunboat pilots.

I'm not saying to get rid of them by any means. What I am saying is that it's not fun being blown up, repeatedly and then being called names in system chat and hearing "Phantoms suck! We killed a Phantom!" Nor do I like hearing "You're a coward, Phantom! You don't want to fight us cause you're a chickenSh*t Phantom!" No, i'm a lone raven claw and i'm trying to make it to a base to do missions (cause that's all I can do anymore) and I have 4 people flying capital ships in the system wanting me to fight them for their sole purpose of bragging rights.

There are others out there like me, who only fly fighters and are sad that we can't do anything. We've talked about it, it sucks.

That is actually one of the gripes I have in the game - fighters can't damage battleships. I think they should. Not much, but they should have a chance? Remember X-Wing? Anyway, off topic discussion there.

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ex

[fwolf]

Well, I only have a destroyer and a gunboat in this server, and the rest are fighters. Im avoiding most pvp encounters right now, if not all of them. My fighters are going to shoot only at npcs, no pvp situation anymore, except for clan battles. In BK I had used battleships but I think they suck, so I dont plan to have one in disco. My trader is making money more to buy a collection of fighters, but it will comes to be that I will only be shooting at npcs, as people only want battleships.

[Nadir]

Nadir, you say your not encouraging people to come after you in BSs, but thats exactly what the KNF is doing. Every time fighters show up you don't go hop in your own to duel. More than half your members traded in their only fighters for gunboats, and then put as many missiles on them as could be. True, your changing your ships to deal with what you face more often, but when you go to the extent where your using ships and equipment that DO need balanced (Miner with GB weaps in Honshu anyone?) than thats what is making people mad. Misfit is using 5 missile turrets and simply spamming fighters non stop 'just because he can.'

So, fix the game, don't expect us to work around the problems! Missiles will be fixed soon anyway. Who am I to order players to 'play fair'. Want to me ask them not to shoot, or maybe play only using the mouse? Feet only?

This isn't about losing, but about people abusing things that need balanced. You know when the Viper became near-invincible, people started using it because they KNEW it was half-impossible to kill without spamming torpedoes. Then there were the other players who (some even had the ship) refused to fly them until the version came out to fix them. These players were not mad about losing. They were made that a bunch of noobs just went out and grabbed the best and buggiest fighter they could because they knew they would win almost any fight against another fighter.

It's not about loosing, not about winning either, it's about me making decisions for people. This topic was about the philosophy of how to approach rule making. It has nothing to do with the very temporary glitch in the Matrix, as it were.

If there's a bug in a game, get the bug fixed, don't complain about the people using the bug. That's a philosophy. I hope I've defended it and repeating my arguments is a waste of everyone's time. I've even said I don't care if that philosophy causes people to quit (foolish them) - my standpoint seems so self-evident to me that people quitting (have patience for goodness sake!) would have an overall beneficial effect: more bugs and balance issues would be fixed because their existence would be brought to light quicker and more forcefully.

Edit: BEFORE someone jumps down my throat, I'm not advocating people quitting, that's just an extreme example to demonstrate a theoretical point. If you find yourself unable to play because of balance issues, I suggest talking to Igiss to get his take on the balance situation or at least posting something in the Balance sub-forum.

Thats the problem with spamming with 5 missile turrets. You don't want to encourage them from bringing battleships, but spamming missiles IS going to do that. I planned to make a Blood Dragon fighter so I wouldn't always have to use my cruiser, except against cruisers. Now I HAVE to use that cruiser whenever I enter Kusari because all I expect is being spammed. Its ruining the game for everyone. Adjusting your loadout to your enemy is one thing, using an unbalanced one just so you can win is something completely different. It IS unfair and it should be fixed. Not because it beats other loadouts, but because it shouldn't be able to kill a fighter in 5 seconds, gunboat or not. True, a cruiser can hurt the GB more now without getting as much damage, but what cruiser can effectively hit a GB in the first place? My Talarca is a light cruiser, meaning less armor and more agility, and I still have a hard time. If the GB is attacked by a larger ship it can just cut and run until enemy is out of CDs.

Are you saying we're the only ones doing it? Look around! And don't enter Kusari space if it's a problem. Wait for the next beta.

This is an uber-loadout used by those interested in just winning, as is the missile spamming 'tactic' and needs to be balanced with everything else in the game. Its still going to be a very effective fighter killer loadout, but it should NOT be this good. Thats all there is to it, and you can either accept it or deny it, its your opinion, but what is a fact is it IS unfair to anyone in a fighter. True, upon seeing a GB a fighter should run or get some backup, but with this missile spamming loadout a fighter is dead upon sight.

Read my first post again. Balancing the game with an excess of nonsensical rules is what I'm against. I sympathise with being blasted out of space upon appearance.

If this continues unbalanced (which it won't) fighters, the thing FL was made to use, will be useless and never touched. You'll see capships, capships, and more capships. Then GBs will die off as their are no fighters to use. Then it will either be tons of BSs or BSs and cruisers. Maybe with fighters coming back.

The fact is we don't want cycles, we want everything to be used equally and for everything to be able to survive a fight fairly. Already I've seen the numbers of fighters reduced in such a way its sad because all SF, SA, or KNF does is missile spam. I have a great respect for RM because of the way they fight and not use unbalanced or out-of-RP equipment. The fact that they do not go out in tons of RH GBs and missile spams earns them a great deal of my respect. They have more fighters than anything else, unique among the player house factions. They are not interested in winning so much as they are in having fun and the other players having fun. SA, SF, KNF, you three factions are only interested in winning (or in SA's case, making sure they 'appear' to win no matter the cost, as is obvious from their 'buggy' battle reports.) and that fact becomes evident in the ships your use and/or the equipment and tactics. You aren't interested in other people's fun, but only your own, and more importantly (for you), winning.

Winning or loosing a battle is irrelevant. I'm looking at the long term as a faction head - unless they're going to do some serious role-play and develop their characters based on wins and losses, which noone really done, which is fine, the outcomes of battles always result in status-quo for the players. Sometimes people with capital ships have a lot in the way of repair and replacement costs, but we've seen more and more people run and F1. Making rules against this is different to making rules against unfair loadouts and cap ship usage because the former is addressing a permanent game 'bug' while the latter is addressing balance abstracts.

Misfit in a destroyer? You sure? He hasn't cleared that with anyone not posted the information that he's flying one...

One more point.... I would hope, as a result of this and other debates most FL Disco people are now aware of the problems with missile turrets and the problem of excessive use of capital ships is being aired with more vigour. The solution for the first problem is being addressed and maybe the solution to the second problem will be too. That would be a good result.

EDIT: can't get quotes to work, nevermind

Well, I only have a destroyer and a gunboat in this server, and the rest are fighters. Im avoiding most pvp encounters right now, if not all of them. My fighters are going to shoot only at npcs, no pvp situation anymore, except for clan battles. In BK I had used battleships but I think they suck, so I dont plan to have one in disco. My trader is making money more to buy a collection of fighters, but it will comes to be that I will only be shooting at npcs, as people only want battleships.

I, for one, think cap ships should all have vulnerabilities that individual fighters can exploit. Maybe not to the point of taking a cruiser down but certainly to inconveniencing it substantially. I don't agree that it should take 2 or 3 fighters to pose a challenge to one. And at the moment, 2 or 3 fighters don't. This is a game balance issue and as such should be a topic explored in the game balance sub-forum. I encourage everyone to put something in there about this problem.

I'm not going to comment on the armament thing, both my 'missle ships' had missles back when they sucked, and will continue to have missles once they've been changed. I'll refrain from using them for now, and won't be putting missle turrets on my other ships.

This is one of the reasons I believe making rules to fix balance problems is wrong. There are always special cases, always other points of view. Rules just invalidate people's freedom. If there's a problem, fix the problem, don't rule it out of bounds.

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ex

[Yngen]

"Balancing the game with an excess of nonsensical rules is what I'm against. I sympathise with being blasted out of space upon appearance."

Freelancer is a flawed game, I hope everyone here realizes that. Igiss is finishing a project that Microsoft refused to complete. He is doing it with limited resources and no access to source Freelancer code. Our rules are in place to fill the balance gap that Igiss is slowly plugging away at.

I follow a great number of rules that aren't published server rules, and I will continue to do so. I understand the reluctance of people to add to the list of server rules, therefor I remind myself to not criticize people for following only published rules. I enjoy PvP as much as RP, and I want my opponent to feel the same.

Until the next release none of my cap ships will have any missle launchers. Unlike fighter missles/torps, the current version of cap ship missles require no skill, finesse, or tactical judgement to use. Cap ship missles negate the manueverability advantage fighters have over cap ships by giving cap ships a blind fire and forget weapon.

I will also endeavor to select the ship that best balances any fight.

I would ask everyone to stop the name calling in game. Unless someone is breaking a server rule, comments about the fairness of weapon loads should remain here on the boards. Stay in character.

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[AU]Anton_Blix
-Signature by Doom

[Nadir]

Fair enough.

Missiles are a storm in a tea-cup. This is a beta version of Discovery after all. I suspect the balancing of capital ships vs fighters is a deeper issue. Subtle enough to be ignored but bad enough to get in the way. Even without ultra-missiles there is still a large scale gravitation toward gunboats and cruisers/destroyers. If it is desired that the majority of ships in the game should be fighters, there needs to be reasons why one would not want to save up and buy a cap ship if one could.

Anyway, if one wishes to play fair and make an effort to promote a fun and positive entertainment experience, praise be to the gods! Alas I can't make people do it with a set of rules. I could always put a 'spirit of the game' section in with the faction rules, mainly to help new players... not that anyone reads the faction rules...;)

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ex