7- and 8-gun gunboats

[Ayatolah]

It's a tradeoff. As for lighter gunboats, I've requested models to be made in the vanilla CTE and Borderworld style for a future update, with light stats similar to that of the Bottlenose. No takers thus far .

That's because maybe you didn't advertised enough:Dbazillion players would love to see that

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[Ursus]

I have been flying some of the heavy GBs in-game for a while now, and am going to bump this for discussion.

The problem, in a nutshell, is turret count and auto-aim. A heavy gunboat with 7-8 turrets auto-aiming on target will always beat a light gunboat with 5-6 turrets auto-aiming on target. Simple math says that if you have two equally skilled pilots who make contact with the target at an equal rate, the one with fewer turrets is probably going to lose. There are some exceptions, pilots who are extremely good at evasion, but we should design for the general case not the exceptions.

Ship agility does help quite a bit, in that it makes it more difficult for the opponent to keep the reticle on you, but with turret steering and the ability to follow a target around the field makes this less true than before.

The way I see to fix this is to treat the heavies the same way we treat the big caps, which is to limit the power core so it is too weak to fire all turrets all the time. Basically make it so a heavy can only fire 5 turrets non-stop. The rest of the turrets will then have to be used for tactical weaps like pulse or missile. This will give heavy gunboats a distinct role that is separate from the light and mediums, while also making them more balanced with each other.

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Discovery 24/7 Negotiating Tactics:

[Knjaz]

Ursus, there's really nothing wrong with imperator.
It's big, fat, and it's life span in large fight is lesser then the one of a lighter boat.

Yes, it gives you an edge in 1x1 gunboat fights. (and even then it's not always possible to keep your opponent in front of you, even on a lighter boat) Payback for that is that you're easier target for everybody else, bombers especially.

[Veygaar]

I have been flying some of the heavy GBs in-game for a while now, and am going to bump this for discussion.

The problem, in a nutshell, is turret count and auto-aim. A heavy gunboat with 7-8 turrets auto-aiming on target will always beat a light gunboat with 5-6 turrets auto-aiming on target. Simple math says that if you have two equally skilled pilots who make contact with the target at an equal rate, the one with fewer turrets is probably going to lose. There are some exceptions, pilots who are extremely good at evasion, but we should design for the general case not the exceptions.

Ship agility does help quite a bit, in that it makes it more difficult for the opponent to keep the reticle on you, but with turret steering and the ability to follow a target around the field makes this less true than before.

The way I see to fix this is to treat the heavies the same way we treat the big caps, which is to limit the power core so it is too weak to fire all turrets all the time. Basically make it so a heavy can only fire 5 turrets non-stop. The rest of the turrets will then have to be used for tactical weaps like pulse or missile. This will give heavy gunboats a distinct role that is separate from the light and mediums, while also making them more balanced with each other.

No, the solution is to remove the auto aim zoom. With just turret steer light GBs are still able to dodge heavy ones depending on their skill level. But with zoom, the bigger fella wins.

Zoom makes GBs/Cruisers/Battleships a simple "Ship X beats ship Y always, skill is now null"

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Veygaar for Admin Moderator 2013!!!

[Dashiell]

I found that the gbs with main guns especially the Orca have huse trouble now with TS-ing vs a heavy gb that also TS but has more guns and better arcs. Lib gb has a bit of the same issue.

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[Ursus]

Yep, true for all of them. And the problem is specifically related to turret steering (zoom isn't the source of the problem, although it amplifies it).

Prior to turret steering, you had to either keep the nose pointed at the enemy to be able to change attack or evasion lines, OR you had to use another view (like reverse view) that prevented you from turning (no steering). This meant small ships with good agility had a distinct advantage over large ships with more arcs, in that they could get into position against the target and have their way with it. It was balanced.

Now with turret steering, you can change directions without having to keep the nose at the target. Smaller ships no longer have their primary attack advantage. Now the only important factor on the damage-output column is the number of arcs that can maintain constant fire.

Agility and size still matter for evasion, the damage-input column. But then zooming breaks this part of it, since it lets the large ship auto-aim on the small ship.

It's a real problem

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Discovery 24/7 Negotiating Tactics:

[mjolnir]

The way I see to fix this is to treat the heavies the same way we treat the big caps, which is to limit the power core so it is too weak to fire all turrets all the time. Basically make it so a heavy can only fire 5 turrets non-stop. The rest of the turrets will then have to be used for tactical weaps like pulse or missile. This will give heavy gunboats a distinct role that is separate from the light and mediums, while also making them more balanced with each other.

Something like that, imo one of the main problems is that GB primaries are just too versatile right now. We are sorting out some new values to try out.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[Ursus]

I realized this morning that gunboats are the only ship-class that can fire all turrets non-stop. None of the fighters can do it, and none of the bigger caps can do it.

All of the gunboats should have their cores reduced a bit, 5 guns constant firing max, depending on weapon draw.

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Discovery 24/7 Negotiating Tactics:

[sindroms]

To be fair, the VHFs are the ultimate in-between ship. In swarms they can kill anything. So if Gbs are the ultimate anti-snub ship, they are supposed to be able to fire their ships all the time....zoom TS withstanding.

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[Knjaz]

I realized this morning that gunboats are the only ship-class that can fire all turrets non-stop. None of the fighters can do it, and none of the bigger caps can do it.

All of the gunboats should have their cores reduced a bit, 5 guns constant firing max, depending on weapon draw.

What?!!!!

Re-check your facts, please. Well, unless you're talking about basics - but then many caps can fire basic versions of their guns forever or for very long period of time, as well.