Zoners

[Thyrzul]

In short, I have often found myself playing a character in a story someone else has written, without being able to influence the overarching structures. That is true power, more so than direct power through paragraphs because it shapes my character's roleplay on every level. You should acknowledge that if you want to understand your own position better, as well as the position of indies.

That is because you at least abide by the hierarchy when no rule forces you to do so, yet, judging by your words, you so far let them shape your story. One of the responsibilities of the Official factions is to incorporate indies when they wish to contribute to the roleplay, so you can pretty much contact the official faction to talk about what you like/don't like and how it affects you, etc. It's not a power you couldn't contest, especially when it involves the story of your character(s).

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[Oorn]

And with little power official have, i alredy see it abused heavily. Unless faction step up their fairplay i dont want more power given to them.

Can you give an example?

I'm not playing right now so I can provide only forum drama examples.
1) Bretonia powerplay base demontage, which caused gigantic drama on forums, but ultimately changed nothing.
2) Cap "batswinged" (dont ask me what it means) someone into manhatten and was then ganked by LN heavily to the point of going super-lolwut.
3)4)5)...From time I was playing I can remember many times I was RPing wirh indy, then official comes and undoes all RP we had.

And numerous cases where players dont bother to trial by forum.

I belive you can find much more browsing comm chanel.

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When "roleplay" around you seems to be diminishing... all you can do is be a new beacon of roleplay to light up everyone else's interactions.

[Zen_Mechanics]

Take toledo as an example, order did not give it up, they lost it. Cause and effect, though indies have no way of altering any significant part in the NPC faction so they can lolwut. Citizens pay taxpayer and they dont argue about millitary budget, they have official folks down there to do the work for them, indies should always have more "freedom" - indies are more or less bound to be "lonely" where faction players aren't.
Everything has its advantages.

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Were fools to make war on our brothers in arms.

[Thyrzul]

1) Bretonia powerplay base demontage, which caused gigantic drama on forums, but ultimately changed nothing.

That's a quite one-sided tl;dr version of the whole complex issue, but yup, I agree, it changed nothing. Cannon laid out directives on how to play out such next time, yet base(s) still got demolished without RP afterwards.

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[Anaximander]

Of course a rule forces me to, you quoted it above. I had it clarified by an admin when I was confused about dissent within factions that lore-wise are structured flatly with many different leaders, and even then it was a no-go.

I think the better thing to do is to discuss how factions can be better leaders, and how to encourage more indies to follow, how we can make positive contributions (such as fixing some of the outlandish lore and make it more coherent so there's a clear direction and clear guidelines for players) and be inclusive, rather than grant formal powers that are - at least in the eyes of some - bound to be abused or handled haphazardly.

[Thyrzul]

Take toledo as an example, order did not give it up, they lost it. Cause and effect, though indies have no way of altering any significant part in the NPC faction so they can lolwut. Citizens pay taxpayer and they dont argue about millitary budget, they have official folks down there to do the work for them, indies should always have more "freedom" - indies are more or less bound to be "lonely" where faction players aren't.
Everything has its advantages.

You are suggesting citizens should have the freedom to ignore the policemen and the military, just because they pay their taxes, and don't argue about budget. Because if we translate the issue with lolwuts to the RL, that's what's happening.

And indies are nowhere "bound to be lonely" since they can make their unofficial factions.

EDIT:

I think the better thing to do is to discuss how factions can be better leaders, and how to encourage more indies to follow, how we can make positive contributions (such as fixing some of the outlandish lore and make it more coherent so there's a clear direction and clear guidelines for players) and be inclusive, rather than grant formal powers that are - at least in the eyes of some - bound to be abused or handled haphazardly.

That would be good to discuss, because I frankly got no idea how to encourage Council indies to follow the official faction, and join us in contributing to the overall roleplay and lore. But of course, cooperation needs two parties. Can't do anything if the other one doesn't want to work along.

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[GTB]

Generally faction leaders don't tend to try and tell Indies what to do, the only time I know from personal experience was when playing Bretonia indie, I was asked by a Bretonia faction player to help them out (and was pointed out I had to do). Apart that once, I've usually found that faction players tend to treat Indies as though they ain't really interested in them, even asking you to butt out of a fight helping them at times (simply because you're an Indie) and don't want you involved.

I've also as an Indie, been attacked by multiple players of an enemy faction without me starting things off. Then watched official faction players sit at a base seeing it going on and not jump in to help. That actually lead to me stopping playing one faction as an Indie, because their attitude towards Indies in kinda sucked.

Also seems most official factions expect you to use "Skype". I don't use it, never have. And won't start using it because an official faction wants you to, if you become an offcial member.

[Hell Hunter]

even asking you to butt out of a fight helping them at times (simply because you're an Indie) and don't want you involved.

Maybe to stop an unfair fight/ganking?

Maybe they didn't help because you were outnumbered?
I'm an indie player and I don't really see any problems with the offical players.

Also they use Skype to communicate + give out shared accounts. So good luck on attack plans, events and calling for help then.

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[Pinko]

4.7 Official player factions have authority over players of the same NPC affiliation, as long as RP justification is provided. This authority applies in forums and in-game, and applies to player faction diplomacy, and strategic and tactical direction. However, exercise of that authority, on the forums and in game, is restricted to official faction members with the rank of the official faction leader and one rank below him/her. The authority may be exercised through the use of in-game in-RP orders, which, if not obeyed, can result in in-game in-RP consequences (arrest, court martial, and even "lethal" force in extreme circumstances). Official player factions cannot, under any cicrumstances, require another player to follow non-canon RP if that player doesn't want to.

That, my friend, is the only rule we could use to have some kind of power over indies, and that specific line at the end I bolded pretty much kills any flexibility of Roleplay an official faction may want to conduct.

I join an NPC faction because its lore interests me, not because of the vision the leader of a faction I'm not even part of that thinks differently of how his faction should be (I call it Loreplay). I don't have time to scan over the diplomacy of every factions. The forums are an addition to the game, not where the main game is played. A lot of indies will never even be involved in the forums' roleplays, which may I remind you, are an EXTENSION of the main server, so they won't even be aware of whatever "roleplay deal" factions may have. It's cool for the factions, but let the indies be.

What's important is what happens in the game. The material the game itself gives me to work with, not the mood swings of a faction leader, either on skype or the forums.

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I want to get off Mr. Igiss' wild ride.

[Zen_Mechanics]

In regards to zoners, the phoenix speak to no one but themselves, and with that I have absolutely no problem.
Official factions should be open-minded to Indie factions ( this may work with zoners ) and not use its status to stamp out others RP or even worse, using its official ground to debunk them. I think someone should tell official factions that not everybody agrees with them and in most cases that they are wrong.

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Were fools to make war on our brothers in arms.