(03-22-2020, 11:12 PM)Thunderer Wrote: You should rename yourself to The Wall of Text Guy. Literally every post you make rivals a Tanith, excluding the verbosity. I think that leaving a tl;dr version at the bottom will ensure that more people read what you say.
PS: If the tl;dr version actually has everything important that you wished to say, then it would be useful to replace your original post with that.
Well I do have a conclusion at the end (What the server should look like), that does some it up.
All in all its just another word in the wall. I often find it funny people won't knuckle down and read long posts. Lack of attention span is best solved by trying to focus more! Because when you really want to say something here, you must be comprehensive in the first place it seems to avoid more explaining after the first post.
(03-22-2020, 11:44 PM)Hemlocke Wrote: I agree with everything you said here, most of this is why I've retreated from disco aside from the occasional meme post, too unplayable, too unenjoyable in it's current state, unfortunately however, as thunderer pointed out himself, only those that really give a damn will actually take the time to read a post that isn't less than two sentences, Many people share your sentiment, but the next question is. Can anything be done about it?
Short answer, probably not.
Oh it probably can be done but the discussions on change usually do stay one sided. The more willing to express their discontent, the more it gets taken seriously, or at least, should be. Personally I think a few simple changes would open things up here and that would actually encourage people that could spend time here to do so again.
(03-23-2020, 02:48 PM)jammi Wrote:
(03-23-2020, 01:44 PM)Riehl Wrote: I miss the days when Bowex and Gateway schemed against each other. Imagine if Kishiro and Samura did that in player RP, not just NPC RP. Would be amazing.
The Border World Exports corporation strongly repudiates any allegations of "scheming" in respect of its lessers.
On a slightly more sombre note, I'm not sure if any of these issues can be held up as the thing killing Discovery, per se, or even as things that would boost server pop if rectified. Being able to take an extremely long view, there has never been a period where these factors were not in play - ever. The server pop high water marks of .85 and .86 were developed with minimal player input, excepting maybe furious backchannel lobbying and scheming by official faction leaders.
Development has always proceeded along preordained lines, primarily because the actual work of preparing updates is too slow and cumbersome to effectively reflect the fast paced and fluid nature of player RP and diplomacy. There's also the fact that players frequently do not consider or accept the inhibitions or constraints that affect their NPC factions' activities, when devs are obliged to.
Frankly, the main thing affecting Disco is the sheer age of the game. Nothing lasts forever, but people have been making 'final nail' jokes since at least 2010. You get less people joining because there's no easily accessed pipeline of players being introduced to Freelancer as the base game any more.
It came out 17 years ago - there are fully grown gamers playing other stuff who were born after Freelancer was released. Short of GOG magicing up rights to sell Freelancer, or some kind of absolutely bonkers community led advertising campaign, any changes we make are still going to be about managing an increasingly depleted pool of current players.
I understand it does have constraints but at the same time I find there is still a good amount of interest in games like Freelancer and worlds like Discovery's version of FL. Ironically, all of this stems from Freelancer being far ahead of its time. Its like other games have struggled and still do to replicate the conditions of a good space ship/space world game. How many are only still here because, somehow, there are actually few or no other games (especially with RP option) like this, except games like SC or Eve which are similar but still different enough, and each has other unique things to make up for where they might lack.
There seems to be a lot you can do with Freelancer, and even more can be done outside of the game via the forum when it comes to macro interactions like faction or house politics/wars.
There has to still be many people that played years ago that would now. When I came here, I found it on Moddb, and the description of all the things you can now do (compared to Vanilla) was the hook for sure. I think after this much time, we need more to add to that. We need to change the value of the game, and open it up for more use. Its at the point where it could stand an upgrade to in game activities and what the RP impact of new activities would be.
What you point out to me is that in order to breathe more life into the place, the choice must be made by those with power to let it happen. We should indeed work some player magic and see who can contribute, who can work on things and help out in any way.
(03-23-2020, 02:58 PM)Loyola Wrote:
(03-22-2020, 10:30 PM)Binski Wrote:
1. Lack of closed roleplay/immersion:
I know many see it as completely unreasonable to go back, but the truth is, ditching closed roleplay helped destroy this place. It now lacks completely substance and depth. Apparently everyone should just belong to every faction. That also underscores though that there is no real depth to any action being done here. There are no real secrets, no one bothers anymore, since its pointless and frowned upon (by the weak, who's only option is to oorp'ly pressure things to be better for them).
Generally the problem is that this server is PvP/PvE server with RP elements and not RP server as it claimed to be. Just amount of RP that is being produced is low. And things that are being produced are for the big part mostly technical and is being done because people "have to" do it. Be it "faction diplomacy" RP or stuff that is being posted in order to get an SRP, etc and not for the sake of RP itself. So in the end it comes down to kind of faceless characters sole purpose of which is to manifest and translate OORP faction/person needs into the RP language.
I did not read your post any further though
Sounds like a good time to classify what it means for Discovery to be an 'RP' server. To me, this place shouldn't only be a backdrop to out of game roleplay, and it shouldn't only be about roleplay. It does have a physical corresponding world that works just fine as a common medium for us all to use to determine whats really going on, at least to a certain degree.
Are we using Freelancer as a backdrop to a space D&D online forum? Or, did we add the use of Roleplay as a connecting force for the Freelancer space world, to give it better continuity for the online version? I think its the latter for most here. That's why it remains a pvp place too, and the game playing aspect is very important. It is also about the physical game and what goes on there, as much or more than the roleplay communication or back story done.
I'll always believe we need a mix of both, but we shouldn't forgo letting as much as we can occur within the actual game. RP will always be the glue holding our in game actions together, or the grease for the wheel. Keeping up activity creates RP'able situation, and for that we need in game activities with enough meaning to both get people online for a cause and create real opportunities for real jobs of value. That goes for both supply and combat related situations.
(03-23-2020, 03:10 PM)NixOlympica Wrote: What I miss the most is random unscripted RP one could find in-game. You know, just meeting someone completely random and having a 30 min RP fest with them.
Basically all of current Disco's problem are tied to a small player base. It leads to the sort of incestious RP where a small group of players can basically monopolize the RP activity of half the Sirius and everyone is friends/enemies with everyone.
As Jammi has said, the game is old and the playerbase is small.
Yes, and the problems of low player count can be solved with an upgrade project of some kind. I'll bet it could be done with changes only to rules, systems on the forum, and simple changes in game like making player buildable WP's (or other in space infrastructure), making new consumable commodities, and allowing battles over 'mortal' objects (bases/jumpgates). Just by allowing a whole new list of activities, we might create some reasons to draw in available players, and let players use those avenues to develop more themselves. Add a small cluster of empty unexplored systems and it would all look really good.
(03-23-2020, 04:14 PM)Catbert Wrote:
At first I was going to go through all of the points you brought up, summarize each in a couple of sentences, and reply with my own thoughts on them. But it would end up in a wall of text of my own. So instead I decided to go for something simpler. Basically, my own list of thoughts and observations on the matter.
1. Being able to play in any faction (even as direct enemies) is a good thing. Especially for a small community like ours combined with a vast universe like Disco's. Otherwise some factions and even areas would've been underrepresented. That, and it lets players to work together rather than against each other. It will be important when we reach point 4.
2. Being able to differentiate between a player and a character, and acting as the character is even better. In fact, my biggest prolem with Disco is the moment when you figure out who the player behind the character is. It's the main immersion breaker. Still, even with that, fun can be had.
3. Nobody can completely detach themselves as a player from their characters and assets. To prove that wrong, ask anyone to create a character from an opposing faction and siege his own PoB which he had been building for months and has plans for it. So, in a way, some factions already work against each other OORPly, imho.
4. When actual players (not characters) work against each other, the gloves go off. RP gets cast aside, every dirty trick is used. A group that never claimed to have (m)any battleships suddenly fields a cap fleet to attack a PoB. In response, weapon platforms are hugged, insults are cast, and hatred boils. That's because of point 3. Shiki also nailed it quite nicely, but from another angle.
What Binski is describing sounds more like EVE Online than Freelancer to me. I never played it, but the reports about inter-faction wars fit the description. Imho, Freelancer and Discovery were always more about weaving your characters into the world, interacting with others, trying to make sense and making your own fun within the scope of the rules and with the resources at our disposal.
P.S. I also agree with Jammi's points above.
I'll reply to each point since that makes it easy to do so.
1. Ironically, I'd rather things be even smaller than the constant diffusion of the player base throughout so many opposing factions. It makes me not take anything being done seriously after I find out who's who. But I want to know. I'd rather be able to know and know that 'so and so' is on the same side most of the time. I've always believed if factions are unpopular, it shows because no one plays them. That shouldn't mean to artificially prop them up. Just let them be dead NPC factions to chew on, and let the life go to the better faction ideas. Eventually dead ones change or drop off for better ideas. I'm all for letting players try to develop these factions to change them for the better if they can. But I still believe its better for the healthier active factions to keep memberships separated so each side can actually be serious about doing stuff. Of course, that would be if there was something to do in game. Everyone just waits for oorp changes and no much draws people online to get stuff done at this point. We had spurts yes, but on average things are still repressed here because too much happens behind the scenes.
2. I guess I touched on that. My main problem is no one really tries certain things because it would be pointless in lieu of members belonging to every other faction, that in some cases definitely conflict. To me, military/police/navy/intel factions at the very least should require closed RP to some degree like years ago, where you couldn't be in LN and LR at the same time, and probably shouldn't have been pushing the line with indies either. There are many cases it should apply. Then you'd see more serious efforts occur. Some lines do still exist naturally but I'd prefer it be all one way or the other.
3. Which makes me think a certain degree of closed RP would be good. Then, if we can boost server population, they'll fill up closed RP factions and we'll have much better quality RP and battles. But the main thing with PvP is, we need our battles and events to be over a real issue, a real risk should be involved, something that will make even sour players think if they refuse to show, they'll lose out. And it will keep going unless they try. Factions should be players teaming up to work together to win a battle for something. Its just enough to create a driving force for players to keep involved, even if odds arent even. Small 'rebel' factions are often outnumbered by large militaries, but they fight for their issues, not for an even battle exercise. That creates a more real atmosphere.
4. That makes my blood boil, when we can't do actual in depth fun things because some kids lose their tempers over losing period. We should ignore that. Deal with trouble makers as they come. Its much better when we just make sure there are plenty of fair ways for players to express their conflicts in-game. You may lose a battle or a siege, but that means if there is a way to get back at your opponents in a way you can win, you'll move to that.
I could care less about base huggers or WP huggers, like that matters? That's the point of those things, if they are on YOUR side, you can use them to your advantage. Its called tactics. To me, we should be able to be using WP's all the time, setting them up in places, to claim areas, block them off, and let others have the chance to destroy them. The more you use, the better your side will do. This is needed to get things moving on a server for a space shooter sim. Players can still use what happens in general to RP what happens to them or what they're doing about things at the larger level. It just adds more corresponding in game action to what we'd rp around. For those who'd say that would be too OP or arcade like, I think the major difference is that we'd be doing it in a big environment within a continuous 'world'.
And for those who prefer to trade, that's fine. Don't vote down WP's just to save yourself a few minutes, while it kills the game to make your life a tiny bit easier.
Every situation like that should also create supply opportunities. Sometimes you blockade run because you want to, or because you have no choice. But that is part of the fun, actually doing it, if you succeed. Or Rp'ing around not making it!
Thanks for all replies/discussion. TL;DR -> Go back to the top and read it all. Every word. Climb that wall
Another wall of text where you ignored me. Why you can't write things as you RP it? It's quite more lovely to read short and laconic text than a wall of text
(03-24-2020, 09:03 PM)Groshyr Wrote: Another wall of text where you ignored me. Why you can't write things as you RP it? It's quite more lovely to read short and laconic text than a wall of text
Ok Groshyr, what if I told you...
Its the lack of stuff to do with Zoner caps thats the problem.
Besides, Rp is different. This is about changing highly ground in routine which in this place is like trying to move planets.
But the truth is this stuff requires a lot of serious discussion. Discussion I'm hoping will either stir the Devs to make changes, or leave a record of what they could have done. If we want better use out of what we have, its going to require knuckling down a bit.
![[Image: 2VbrSzU.png?1]](https://imgur.com/2VbrSzU.png?1)
![[Image: uKgKrP1.png]](http://i.imgur.com/uKgKrP1.png)
![[Image: G38aJ6J.jpg]](https://i.imgur.com/G38aJ6J.jpg)
![[Image: 31OwWoq.jpg?1]](https://i.imgur.com/31OwWoq.jpg?1)