Faction membership rules, role play rules

[Dab]

@Yngen; First, please don't talk about things between factions when your not aware of the facts.

The restraining order between AW and Phantoms was put into place not because of problems between Kane an me, or in regards to Alpha being in both. A few of the Phantom members, who will remain unnamed, had personal problems with the way I acted. The problem escalated farther than it really should, ending in insults, flaming, making fun. This incident that encompassed all these problems, ended in the restraining order.

This had nothing to do with Alpha being in both factions. In fact, Phantoms leave him alone about being in AW, and AW leaves Alpha alone about being in Phantoms. Neither side minds it. When I was in Phantoms, I found it very fun, and very RP. We also care more about keeping Alpha as a member than getting him out of the enemy's faction.

The only time multi-factioning becomes a problem, is when leaders don't like each other personally and one or both has a vendetta on the other, or when one leader cares more about getting his member out of the other faction, than he does about the member being in his own, or that player's fun, which is the reason we play this game.

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[PARAKEET]

For me personally, sticking to one clan as a person makes things much easier. I don't have to split my attention into two or more.

The least "interesting" situation I can imagine, is having chars in two, warring clans.

Best option, I and many of my m8s used was having mostly BSG chars and one pirate or other non-lawful. So that nobody went nutso with being lawful all the time.

My suggestion: as it is in the book. 2 clans maximum per player.

Well that sounds like a better idea for but for now I am sticking with one faction. I can only have up to 5 characters since I just use the default administrator account. If i create one more account the default one disappears.

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RAGB-Sundered.Heart
<strike>RACS-Sleeper.Cell.II</strike>

[Yngen]

@Yngen; First, please don't talk about things between factions when your not aware of the facts.

You and I have very different ideas about what facts are. But thank you for explaining the restraining order.

Nightfall:

Why would it not be for two Zoners (or Zoner Faction or whatever other same tag, not necessarily Outcasts vs Outcasts) to go against eachother? They can have a reason whatsoever, say leader of one. The Corsairs on the other hand (read the infocard pls) have no allies. If you read the news on bases about the Anti-Corsair Coalition, you'll note that there isn't any Liberty Navy siding with them. Finally, look at your starting reputations the corsairs are well in the red while you are well in the green with the LiNavy/Police. Or if you want another example, the GoR can ally with the RM then as you put it. They are neutral as they don't get on each other's turf.

So which is it? Is a player faction bound to follow the information found on the faction infocard? Or are they allowed to do whatever they want? Or is it somewhere in between (if so, where is the line drawn?) In otherwords, if a player faction uses an ID associated with an NPC faction, how closely does that player faction have to match their behavior with the NPCs?

One can deduce the enemies and friends from an NPC faction's behavior, who they share their bases with and their location OR one could look at the enemies/friends list found on the info card. The infocard is much more limiting an option-some people are following the info card completely, others are almost ignoring it.

How many degrees of seperation must a faction have from another faction's enemies to be allowed to ally with it and vice versa? For example: Bretonian Armed forces are a lawful military who are hostile with Naval Forces. Does this hostility allow them to be friendly or allied with Blood Dragons or GC-an unlawful faction? Or how about Naval Forces being allowed to ally with Gaians or Corsairs?

Perhaps the reason we must be so strict with following the information on the info card is because we know the reputation system in freelancer has some quirks, like making one green with Corsairs when killing Outcasts, as Lib Navy pilots do.

Organic or static? We can't do both at the same time or we're going to have flames here. Whatever decision is reached, this information should be pasted to the ID for all to see.

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[AU]Anton_Blix
-Signature by Doom

[Dab]

Yngen, you weren't there, nor were you a part of AW or Phantoms when this happened, and still are not.. You are not going to know as much as Kane or me about the incident.

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[Nightfall]

So which is it? Is a player faction bound to follow the information found on the faction infocard? Or are they allowed to do whatever they want? Or is it somewhere in between (if so, where is the line drawn?) In otherwords, if a player faction uses an ID associated with an NPC faction, how closely does that player faction have to match their behavior with the NPCs?

Yngen, don't play that word game with me. How much more precise than 'follow the information found on the faction infocard and take it from there' would you like? Connect things logically.

One can deduce the enemies and friends from an NPC faction's behavior, who they share their bases with and their location OR one could look at the enemies/friends list found on the info card. The infocard is much more limiting an option-some people are following the info card completely, others are almost ignoring it.

I feel sorry for those who are ignoring it. They miss so much fun. (Should I name some? I think they know who they are.)

How many degrees of seperation must a faction have from another faction's enemies to be allowed to ally with it and vice versa? For example: Bretonian Armed forces are a lawful military who are hostile with Naval Forces. Does this hostility allow them to be friendly or allied with Blood Dragons or GC-an unlawful faction? Or how about Naval Forces being allowed to ally with Gaians or Corsairs?

Perhaps the reason we must be so strict with following the information on the info card is because we know the reputation system in freelancer has some quirks, like making one green with Corsairs when killing Outcasts, as Lib Navy pilots do.

That is the exact reason why we have to be strict. Do you see the GoR allied with the SF? No. Even because there is the cooperation against Kusari mentioned in the Bret vs Kusari war, we are not allied. If Igiss decides to push the story that way, we will ally with them as it should be, then the KNF would have a reason to ally with the Corsairs and Gaians. Some limited cooperation may exist as the situation tends to develop that way, but not friendly/alliance.

Organic or static? We can't do both at the same time or we're going to have flames here. Whatever decision is reached, this information should be pasted to the ID for all to see.

You can be organic AND follow the infocard - completely. Just needs a bit more elaboration. That is where most of the copouts fail, they don't elaborate it.

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If the stars should appear one night in a thousand years, how would men believe and adore and preserve for many generations the remembrance of the city of God? - from 'Nightfall' by I. Asimov
The Outcasts consider Siniestre Nube a sacred place for several reasons. Early explorers discovered a jumphole within the depths of the cloud that leads to a strange world of ringed stars and strange craft. All ships in the burrial ground are placed facing that hole to honor the Alien Spirits. - An Outcast rumor

[Craines]

The definition of organic is as follows:

viewing or explaining something as having a growth and development analogous to that of living organisms: an organic theory of history.

Or

of or pertaining to the basic constitution or structure of a thing; constitutional; structural: The flaws in your writing are too organic to be easily remedied.

Thanks, dictionary.com!

What is the point of this, you ask? I'm simply building my point up. We must make sure that we are understanding everything correctly, for the slightest variance could lead to disaster, and of course, flames. So!

I find it interesting that one can be confined and organic. My argument is that the idea of a structured plan or outline trumps that of an organic idea. Knowing where something is gonna go means that it isn't organic, but structured. Because we play a role-playing game, in which we must follow a set of rules that are pregoverned and essentially supply us with a limited number of choices, it cannot be fully organic. But then again, it cannot be fully structured because of the 'free-will' phenomenon that humans have.

Ergo, Discovery is a...

CYBORG! (Dun dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!)

So perhaps the only way we could follow the IDs directly is if we deleted all the NPCs, and therefore, our actions are implicitly those of the ID.

Or! More sanely,

We could choose to be either structured, in which we must follow the ID explicitly without wiggle room at all, or we could choose to be completely organic, in which we would be able to define our own path and not be governed by our factions, but instead govern our faction.

The ambiguity that can arise makes this decision necessary. We might not like it, but as Discovery grows, we'll need to make things clear-cut to avoid confusion.

*This has been a HarleyCo Law Division Diversionary Discourse. It has been approved by the No-Flam Committee of Anti-Flames, and has been coated in a special anti-combustion spray. No flames can erupt from this post! Guaranteed by HarleyCo! The name you can't afford not to trust!*

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[fwolf]

They can be friendly/allied with RM in the same way the Corsairs can be friendly/allied with SA - no how. That was my point F Wolf.

Ok. I interpreted it wrong.

[Nightfall]

What is the point of this, you ask? I'm simply building my point up. We must make sure that we are understanding everything correctly, for the slightest variance could lead to disaster, and of course, flames. So!

I find it interesting that one can be confined and organic. My argument is that the idea of a structured plan or outline trumps that of an organic idea. Knowing where something is gonna go means that it isn't organic, but structured. Because we play a role-playing game, in which we must follow a set of rules that are pregoverned and essentially supply us with a limited number of choices, it cannot be fully organic. But then again, it cannot be fully structured because of the 'free-will' phenomenon that humans have.

I still fail to see the usefulness of your point except to destroy/negate the sole concept of Discovery/Freelancer universe.

The whole game is made of compromises, it's limited as such. You can grow within those limits, or to be more precise, you shouldn't mount a piece of equipment on your ship 'just because you can' nevermind it'a a bug the reason you can mount it, or be allied with the Corsairs just because the program in the game makes them full green if you kill enough GC/Blood Dragons/Outcasts NPCs. If you have a way to implement (in lack of better term atm) 'fully organic behaviour' to the NPCs, the game physics itself and overcome all the limits imposed by the game/program, please share it with us. I'll be the first to accept.

Otherwise, this sounds like just another pointless exercise and discussion for the sake of discussion. You're good at it.:P

Thanks for teaching us to speak better English.

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If the stars should appear one night in a thousand years, how would men believe and adore and preserve for many generations the remembrance of the city of God? - from 'Nightfall' by I. Asimov
The Outcasts consider Siniestre Nube a sacred place for several reasons. Early explorers discovered a jumphole within the depths of the cloud that leads to a strange world of ringed stars and strange craft. All ships in the burrial ground are placed facing that hole to honor the Alien Spirits. - An Outcast rumor

[Craines]

Is not all discussion pointless if it has no agenda?

I seek not to disrupt, but to grow, learn, and teach what I know. And if I learned something, it's that pointless, circular discussion is easy. :P

But really, my point is not and may not, (that's right, I'm negating the ability for it to be interpreted in any way other than this.), be seen as an anarchistic attempt. I'm not trying to destabilize Discovery. My point is simply to disprove the idea that you can be organic within a confined space.

Because, by it's definition, you can't.

So we aren't really role-playing organic characters, but we aren't role-playing mechanical ones, either. Ergo, my cyborg comment.

(Mohorovicic Discontinuity. I'm going from serious to silly. The following is going to be silly, whereas that above it quite serious and treating it otherwise would be highly disrespectful. I'd be forced to get on my angry boots. GAH! The silliness is already seeping in!)

And Caylith/Nightfall, you know I don't possess even the inkling of computer knowledge barring cut and paste. I couldn't program a dog to go bark... or some other metaphor that makes more sense.

And you misused the word pointless. I taught you something, no? Therefore, how could it have been pointless?
:D:P:D

Smileys make the world go round. Fear them.

(Wiki for Morhorovicic:
Andrija Mohorovicic (IPA ['ʌndɹɪja mɔhɔ'ɹɔvɪtʃɪtʃ]) (January 23, 1857 – December 18, 1936) was a notable Croatian meteorologist and seismologist. He is best known as the eponym for the Mohorovičić discontinuity.)

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[Igiss]

Well, I apologize for not reading the whole discussion (not enough time right now), but...

ID system was intended to allow certain freedom within certain limits. There are three main limitations that ID imposes. First is roleplay status. The faction should be lawful if it has lawful ID, should be unlawful (not essentially pirating) if it has pirate ID. The faction should have allies and foes similar to its NPC affiliate (Kusari Navy faction cannot be friendly with Bretonia Navy or BMM or Mollys, for example).

Second limitation is the location. Gaian faction cannot reside in Rheinland, obviously (even if they got no faction system, they shouldn't be interfering into what's going on in remote regions - at least, on regular basis).

Third limitation is ships and equipment being used. Again, there is some freedom allowed regarding equipment, but with ships it's better to follow ship series that NPC faction is using. Right now, every ship series from original Freelancer has its level 10 heavy fighters. Weapons... well, you should definitely use at least several native weapons.

I know that ID system looks a bit illogical due to the fact that ID item doesn't influence reputation in any way. I cannot even make NPCs to scan for it. However, this item is required... and one of the primary reasons is the fact that changing actual reputation in-game doesn't work in the way it should (hardcoded). That's why new rules require to scan for ID before a PvP attack. IDs are more persistent than reputations. They do look less obvious than in-game [tag], but at least they don't cause confusion like players having different mutual reputations. So we will have to enfore using them...