How far are players and factions allowed to diverge from the storyline in the mod?

[The.Wizard]

What Sea Falcon and Zelot said.And some more...
If we are about to change some important things in this game then we will have to change much more then we
are mentioning here.'Cause one thing lead's to another...
If (for example) Corsair-BHG combat alliance in war against Zoners ( or TCG| for that matter and that did happened) is allowed in spite full hostile status of there's npc's then-FR-5 makes no sense...cap's restriction rule makes no sense...
tech-chart makes no sense...the RP for that matter makes no sense...another example-TCG| got FR-5 from Corsaires(???) for helping Zoners and in the same time Corsaires and BHG have fought TCG| together as allies during that Zoner "war"...???...( i apologize for using TCG as example but it's close to me and i know the situation)...If we loose logic in game and if we go against game mechanic(npc's) at all cost then
it won't be the same game anymore...not to mention constant meta-gaming that happens all the time,it would only get worse if we drop all the restrictions...
One of the reasons i got hooked on this game is cause it's got more "freedom" then rest of the games and i do think that RP of players and factions should be free but within limits of at least game mechanic and npc's...otherwise there will be no logic in factions RP...
If change is to take place let's do it slowly and under strict control of Admin-team.

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[William Frederick Cody]

Jinx posted pretty much the majority of my thoughts on the matter.

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[Agmen of Eladesor]

I've been thinking of this one for a while tonight.

Back in the days of paper and pencil role play, when you would have a Dungeon Master sitting at his table behind his screen, the other players sitting around the room exploring the wilderness or the dungeon, the DM never knew for sure what door the players would open next. So he planned ahead if he was any good, and had a series of encounters ready for them.

Presuming he wasn't using a store bought module, that is - and even then, if he was worth his salt, he'd modify it to fit his campaign. (I'll get back to that word in a minute.) The player characters would go through, get the treasure, live or die, and then move on to the next adventure. While the DM set up the world, it was up to the players to decide where they went. He could lead them with clues, but in the end he had to be able to wing it when things went off the beaten track.

(Quick example - we had an encounter once that the DM had planned out to scare us away from fighting - we were terribly outnumbered and outclassed. Instead, we quickly used our magic abilities and special items to set up a kill zone, funneled the attackers into it, and ended up killing all of them, through superior tactics and some luck.)

That's what Disco is - a continuation of the campaign that was Freelancer, and is just like a D&D campaign except that we're dealing with a whole universe - and thousands of players. It's still role-playing, just primarily (and this is the key difference) self-directed role-play.

You want to RP a left-handed pirate? Go ahead. You want to be a brave adventurer? Go ahead. You want to be a fearless naval commander? Go ahead. You want to be a furry? Well, some people have issues with that, but still... we do have a Monkey Planet, after all...

Once you got out of the single-player campaign mode, and went into multi-player AND then moved into the mods, the ability to completely direct things has gone from the hands of Igiss and the devs, and now has to be shared with the players. Realistically, the only thing that they can do now is set up the major, universe altering events - if for no other reason than the mod doesn't update that often. And the bad thing from that perspective is that if it's NOT a universe altering event, then the devs need to keep in mind or at least pay attention to what the players themselves are doing, since there isn't a day to day game master TELLING the players what they can and cannot do.

There are the rules of play - but this is a freestyle role-play server. The Admins enforce the rules - but they've also said that they cannot restrict how someone role plays their character as long as they aren't breaking the rules. The official and unofficial factions that have certain historical restrictions upon them due to the very nature of what they are have to toe the line closer to the original Freelancer role-play for that type of character. The ones that don't have those restrictions - well, not only do they not have to necessarily be as close, but it's actually stifling of role-play if you limit them.

As an example, the house navies are, pretty much no matter how you want to role play your character, still set up and run as a military organization, replete with military style discipline, combat based upon what's good for their specific houses, limited areas of operation (depending upon what you're doing). Other factions may not always stay the way they were. To simply tell the players that have invested their time in setting up their role play - in some cases more than a year - that sorry, you have to push a reset button, especially when the in-game role play has been consistently followed on the forums is the wrong way to treat your players.

That is where the devs and Igiss need to just set the big frame work - Gallia invades, the Nomads blow Toledo to smithereens, certain ship types get developed, new worlds get made - and then get out of the players way. Be flexible enough to realize that the players are going to do some of the darnedest things at times, and also be respectful enough of your official factions, who have shown through the sheer fact that they made it to officialdom that they're willing to invest their time and energy into the game, that you are willing to reward them by listening to them and working with them.

As long as it's not really going to make or break a pre-programmed event (the KNF and BAF suddenly sign a peace treaty, and invade Languadoc together) then go with the flow.

If you hand me a character sheet for a D&D character, it's going to have his or her stats and equipment. You tell me to role play that character, I'm going to put not only my own personality into that character, I'm going to role-play as I think that character should be role played, within the constraints of the alignment and character class. (I like chaotic good Rangers, by the way - may not still have it, but that bonus they used to have against giant class creatures was really nice.) But if you tell me this is how you must role play the character, then I'm no longer playing that character, I'm simply an actor mouthing his lines. That's part of the fun of being both human - and playing in a game that doesn't have alignments, only ID's.

If you can justify an action within your ID, then you should be allowed to do it. And realize that people can and do still have choices that they can make. Anyone who's ever played Mass Effect 2 - you can be as paragon as you want, and still have fun shooting Conrad in the foot. Does that renegade action make you a bad person? No - just means that you're playing ... a human.

Long post can be summed in thus:

Let the official factions set up their role play - and if need be, their ID's, since they ARE the ones that play those characters all the time. Make sure that if it's an ID change that they do run it past the Admins / Devs for approval, to keep them within the general broad strokes of the game. Igiss and the Devs create the universe and the big stuff - and otherwise, just let the players ... well, play. If something comes up that's not in the big universe, and realistically doesn't affect the big universe, let it role play and see what happens. Worst case situation you change some reputations and re-write some info cards. Best case situation your players have suddenly had a lot of fun, because something unexpected happened.

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[Elsdragon]

Before I begin, Let me say that was a very well thought out post, Agmen

Back in the days of paper and pencil role play, when you would have a Dungeon Master sitting at his table behind his screen, the other players sitting around the room exploring the wilderness or the dungeon, the DM never knew for sure what door the players would open next. So he planned ahead if he was any good, and had a series of encounters ready for them.

True that. Unless you have ungodly ad-libbing skill, you really need to set some stuff up ahead of time /offtopic

(Quick example - we had an encounter once that the DM had planned out to scare us away from fighting - we were terribly outnumbered and outclassed. Instead, we quickly used our magic abilities and special items to set up a kill zone, funneled the attackers into it, and ended up killing all of them, through superior tactics and some luck.)

1 HD Kobolds, some murder holes, and loarge quantites of flaming garbage made one of my old groups lose all semblance of bowel control. Once litterally. /more offtopic

That is where the devs and Igiss need to just set the big frame work - Gallia invades, the Nomads blow Toledo to smithereens, certain ship types get developed, new worlds get made - and then get out of the players way. Be flexible enough to realize that the players are going to do some of the darnedest things at times, and also be respectful enough of your official factions, who have shown through the sheer fact that they made it to officialdom that they're willing to invest their time and energy into the game, that you are willing to reward them by listening to them and working with them.

Very true.

If you hand me a character sheet for a D&D character, it's going to have his or her stats and equipment. You tell me to role play that character, I'm going to put not only my own personality into that character, I'm going to role-play as I think that character should be role played, within the constraints of the alignment and character class. (I like chaotic good Rangers, by the way - may not still have it, but that bonus they used to have against giant class creatures was really nice.) But if you tell me this is how you must role play the character, then I'm no longer playing that character, I'm simply an actor mouthing his lines. That's part of the fun of being both human - and playing in a game that doesn't have alignments, only ID's.

And that is what I find roleplaying is. If it is overly dictated, it just dosent work, y'know what ah mean?

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No longer a slave to the man!

[Arashi]

Agmen: Nice post. 2 problems

1) No DM's to be judge of whether what you're doing is legal (admins don't count, they don't do anything unless someone breaks a rule and they are busy anyways.

The DM's job is to keep you within the rules. If there is a question about the rules, the DM makes the judgement. The DM has the power to deny you that course of action, forcing you to rethink your options and choose another path. Or decide that you can get away with it, and let you continue. You are still free to try to go anyway you want, but there is still a set of rules you must follow. The point is, the DM is biased towards the GAME/RP, not towards your party. I know when I DM'd, I was trying to kill the party half the time, but if I saw good RP, I'd let them get away from something they shouldn't have, just because they RP'd a way out of it, which the rules wouldn't normally allow.

2) Factions have guidelines/lore, go to far away from that lore, and you're no longer representing what you started, so why bother calling yourself "X group" anymore.

Basically, factions should stay within there guidelines/lore, without some higher authority vetting the change in lore. Or just break away from that group completely and call youself something else.

Examples:
You are a Zoner, you would rather fight than be neutral. Don't call yourselves Zoners anymore.. or at least not just "Zoner"... maybe Outerworlds Freedom Fighters, or Zoners for independence.

Or if you're Bounty Hunter, and you feel like being an evil miltaristic, power hungry seeking work only for profit, and d**n the morality of anything we do... Then Give yourself a new name, and leave Bounty Hunters as what they are. An example is Blackwater USA, a Private Military Company. They are technically Mercenaries, but are a company. with their own rules and regulations. What they do, is solely on them, it has no effect on Mercenaries around the world, since they are seen as a separate entity now.

So this falls into letting factions make their own guidelines, but I'm saying that if that's the case, you can be based off of "group" but don't call yourselves THAT group or claim to represent that group, cause you no longer do and are only representing yourself and those with you.

EDIT:
P.S. I hope what I was meaning to say comes through, I'm not trying to be derisive, or defamatory. Just point out that, without a central judging authority on RP (not rules), that there has to be some path to follow that you are not allowed to stray to far from without higher vetting to prevent biased changes.

It's hard for me to explain what I mean in words, I'm autistic and a visual person, so please don't take this badly. It wasn't ment to be.

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Enjoying a game isn't always taking the easy route, sometimes you have to take chances and trust in luck, sometimes that luck takes a big bite out of your backside.

[Camtheman Of Freelancer4Ever]

Some recent examples I think of groups and situations that might fall into this category are
- The Virulian Enclave official faction request
- Corsair and BHG non-agression pact.
- Corsair and BHG attacks on Zoners.
- Outcast agreement with BAF.
- Order attacking Corsairs.
- GMG thing with Outcasts.
- Zoner/Corsair/Order/RHA/RM/RoS/BAF/VR/HF funfest in Omega-3 (did I miss anybody)
- Molly agreement with Bretonia.
- SCRA/RHA/Molly attacks on the Zoners.
- Liberty Navy and Rogue attacking the SCRA (together).
- Secret IND/Admin alliance.

Things like this can happen, and should for sake of variety and making the game fun and interesting for everyone. But. Things like this can easily be abused and should be watch over carefully for...

Metagaming
PvP abuse
and other nasty things that degrade the quality of our roleplay environment and peoples experiences here.

[Dreor]

Let's embrace the completely ridiculous happenings in the name of freedom?

Like youre playing with a chaotic neutral ranger, who's siding with the giants instead of killing them, and more so, he's leading them against the village he used to rest between his legendary journeys?

ID is still ID, at least that minimum of "rule" should keep bloodthursty people on a leash. Or can you just change your alignement because your team are nodding heavily at the DM reciting the word "freedom?".

I'm a bit sad about where things are going.

Just a bit of rational thinking. I think people are kind of free righ now, and nothing truly restricts them (facts show that they are actually siding with the orcs to ransnack the city where they reside. and yes of course evil ones would surely do that. but not the lawful paladin. oh not.)

Too bad Role play is plagued by various things. Yes I understand it's not a 5man party, I understand Admins are not DM-s, but for the sake of everything: People should log on the very bad really badguys if they'd like to commit bad things. Same goes for badguys. I know it's not a black/white universe, but how come some people can play the other colours while the rest is just keep shooting, and forging abstract alliances.

So many possibilities, and such unrealistic and childish "alliances" seems to emerge from this large universe.

Don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, nor I'd like to point with finger.

[BaconSoda]

- I think we should let all players RP what they want to do.

That is pretty much how I feel. Let people RP how they like, however, if extraordinary RP which deviates a lot from the mod, it must be quality RP and the RPers should be able to take responsibility for the RP and its RP consequences. What do I mean? Let me use a hypothetical example: say the Bundschuh make a secret deal with the Hogosha to smuggle Artifacts into Rheinland. Obviously the word secret is the key word here. If the Hessians or Unioners find out about this, the Bundschuh should not, in any way, shape, or form, complain about the ramifications of being caught by a group which either hates Artifacts or is the main mover of Artifacts in the region.

So, if I use your own example of the Rogues making a deal with Rheinland, Rheinland should make no fuss if anyone ever finds out about it. If peace is made between Liberty and Rheinland and the LR are still using Hornvipers against the Liberty Navy, the Rheinland Military would have to own up to what happened and deal with political ramifications, such as embargo or whatever, instead of coming onto the forums and whining, at which point some penalty could be applied if they get too annoying, such as revocation of Tech-giving status or Official-Faction-Probation, just like a SRP ship would have happen to it.

Or at least that's how I see things. Let people do what they want, but they have to own up to what they do. If they prove that they can actually RP well and own up to their actions, they can get rewarded, maybe. If they can't take responsibility for their own RP actions, then they get smacked.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and Igiss is a good Game Master. I like development as it is.

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[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.

[The.Outlaw.Star]

Yea thats what iam sayin! if all this crap is allowed that cannon posted in post #1 Then.....



I want my "Ghost.Ship" RP Back !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: Iam down for whatever tho fo real. I love this place no matter what. Plus this is space so could we really control all this? (retoracal question)

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[Shryke]

A lot of different people have said different things that I agree with so there's no point in repeating them. I will however add that if change comes slowly, and with mod releases being as far spaced apart as they are, things become stale and people become bored.

As much as the Omicrons are not to be mentioned, and as much bad blood there is, they are more active now than a month ago. Wherever there is change and controversy, people will go there.

So there is a fine balance that needs to be achieved. If the story moves slowly, it becomes stale. You can log into your Hessian character and attack the Corsairs (for example) so many times before it gets boring and repetitive and you lose interest in it. If things move too fast, people tend to complain.

People have multiple factions because of this, and as a reason some faction characters and some factions as a whole are neglected. Take for example the Rheinland unlawful factions besides the Hessians. They are practically dead in terms of activity because quite frankly there isn't a whole lot they can do. What can the Bundschuh do except try to get their message across and maybe get into a couple of fights? Not a whole lot. Nor has this changed at all in a good long while. A stale environment doesn't breed creativity and just discourages people.

So the question is who is the catalyst for change, the players or the developers? I'm not going to get into that. Why, you may ask? Because I believe if you are in any way charged with developing the story or this mod you should not be in a position of power in any faction. In most RP games, especially where there is some sort of competition, this is a rule to prevent bias. The people running the show aren't even allowed to play. It's a huge sacrifice, I know, and I for one wouldn't be willing to make it nor do I suggest the current people in charge do so.

So I'll simply say leave the development style as it is, but release smaller updates that move the storyline gradually and have something new for all regions so that we don't have dead factions. Build up to mod-changing events like the Gallian invasion instead of just dropping it into our laps suddenly.

My $0.02

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