History is just a guideline based on what has happened in the past. Evidence of that includes the election of the first African-American president, something that has never happened before. History is what we create, not something that we must live by. It's a guideline.
Stuff changes. Go with the flow. If we, the LPI, want to stop selling slaves, we want to stop selling slaves. Do we want to stop being somewhat corrupt donut-munching cops? Hell no. That's what we _are_. That's not what we did in the past.
' Wrote:No, you play the role that canon (both Vanilla and Discovery-added) has defined for your faction. Within that role there is room for some individuality, i.e. corrupt cop/straight shooter. But the guidelines are not set by the faction, they are set by pre-established Lore, that the faction follows. In some cases the faction can help develop the Lore, but the Lore is the 'operating manual' for the faction, which should not be deviated from.
And who writes the "lore"? just curious, cause shouldn't those who know their respective factions the most be the ones writing their lore, and determining their RP?
We've certainly seen plenty of factions change the course of their RP. (The list Zapp made for one) Lets also consider factions that by the LORE and Cannon, should not exist at all. (Nova PG, HF, VR, Keepers, Phantoms, Havesters, etc etc) all are newly created factions which did not exist before. And yet.. most still exist today, despite not having any links to Vanilla freelancer. They were allowed to CREATE their RP from scratch. Why can't we modify ours slightly?
Iâll carry this flag
To the grave if I must
Because itâs flag that I love
And a flag that I trust
' Wrote:In fact the only possible signs of this is bar rumours.... which are just that rumours.
This debate pops up every once in a while. And while I enjoy the odd, and sometimes wacky, rumor, the fact is that rumors are the single best source for information we have, since Freelancer does not have a library that we can access. So while, yes, they are named 'rumors' they are also factual information.
As to your second post:
myself, earlier Wrote:In some cases the faction can help develop the Lore
Yes, the lore is not static, nor should it be. By all means, suggest changes and drive the story forward, but frankly, I have seen factions do some very very weird things with their lore. So oftentimes I'll ask for a Faction's imput on xyz, or try to allude to what a faction is doing into infocards/rumors, but rarely will full control of a faction be in a faction's hands.
And yes, I know I contradicted myself. That's because this line is a very fine one, and there is no clear-cut answer.
There is plenty of vanilla information supporting that the LPI effectively kidnap hobos to send to the Sugarland on charges that are sketchy at best. They don't work them to death, they just have them make stuff for awhile and then get released to the land of not being fed. It's actually kind of like some of the programs enacted during the Great Depression, except that they don't give you a choice about it. You get food and shelter in exchange for work. Some people might say that the LPI's actions on Houston are only half greedy, and the other half compassionate. Seriously, these guys would be living in the mud and probably eating it too if they weren't in jail.
I will agree that the Sugarland handing off it's entire compliment of people is pretty ridiculous, now that I think about it. I would, however, like to see slaves sold at Houston like they used to be, as while you could argue the LPI would not fork over potential workers, there's a reason they grab people from Houston... nobody important notices if even a few thousand hobos disappear. Hell, the important people will probably figure that since they see less hobos, life is improving.
The LPI are not a faction comprised entirely of true patriots and honest people. Changing that is kind of like changing how the Zoners want to live outside the "oppressive" rule of the houses (OWAIT). True patriots and honest people might join the LPI, sure, but they are not all made of sunshine and rainbows. As a for-profit company, there are people for whom greed comes first and foremost. Being corporate may not automatically make you evil baby-eating bastards, but it does mean that if you're successful enough you will attract the attention of the greedy.
Publicly, I would expect the LPI to come down very hard on confirmed bribery. If they can't worm out of it, everyone does. If the IND get boxed in, they do too... though they only do it if they get boxed in. If you don't have to take the bad press of having people who take bribes in your ranks, you don't. No company does. As a company, you have a duty to your shareholders.
Actually, I want to make that a bigger point before I keep going about bribery.
As a corporation, the LPI have a duty to their shareholders. The shareholders will choose a board of directors that fulfills that duty. The people who run the LPI, at least on the business side, will be concerned with the monetary operation of the LPI, not with any moral obligations or patriotism. They might be patriotic, sure, but if they let that get in the way of the good of the shareholders they will not last very long. If being a bit on the shady side will both A) bring in more money and B) can be gotten away with, they'll do it. Modern corporations do it all the time. Hell, modern governments do it all the time. For the same reason whistleblowers don't get promoted, people who allow their patriotism to get in the way of getting money won't stay in charge for long.
Back to bribery. Publicly, you'd come down very hard on it. By the same token, however, the Council publicly condemns the actions of the Maquis. Do notice that Council gives the Maquis ships, works alongside them, and outsources the horrible but necessary parts of war to them. Publicly Samura claims that they would never endorse or support attacks on Kishiro, yet behind closed doors they're forking out a lot of cash to the FA and Hogosha to get them to raid Kishiro depots. Sometimes Samura even has the balls to openly sell stuff stolen from Kishiro, just to show off how cool they are. (This is all vanilla information.)
So, while I would expect the LPI to be very firm on their stance on corruption when doing PR, that has no bearing on whether or not they are actually corrupt.
Officers taking bribes in unprofessional and illegal, yes. But so is throwing people in prison for nothing and forcing them to make things for you to sell. I will point out that this does not imply that the LPI should engage in all manner of illegal activities- just that the legality of certain actions is not the main concern. "Reality is what you can get away with." If an officer thinks he can get away with taking a bribe, he might. Even good people might do it- taking that money removes it from the pockets of the "bad" people. A true patriot might accept a bribe, then donate it to the orphanages (they certainly need the money). It all depends, though. By the same token, the LPI are probably not going to make a huge fuss if they find out one of their best officers took a bribe and sent the money to an orphanage. It would make them look bad, after all, and that means less money. They'd think about it, but they would not automatically go "bribe = evil" and call in the cavalry. Remember that good people in the LPI might see the operations on Houston as illegal but beneficial- they are feeding, sheltering, and clothing people who would otherwise live under bridges with nothing, after all.
The LPI are not lawful good. They may be the law, but they don't always follow it themselves, be it for profit or for patriotic reasons. Some of them may be lawful good, but you'll find a spread of characters in any organization. The overall actions of the LPI are not lawful good, and that's what should be taken into consideration- not the actions of any given individual.
However, they are not the bad guys either. Greedy, sometimes, and you may find the odd person who joined the LPI so he could shoot people, but they are not consciously trying to destroy order in the world. "Do not assume evil motives for what could be adequately explained by ignorance or incompetence" applies.
Not wanting to sell slaves on Sugarland? Sure. Makes sense, now that I think of it.
Not wanting anyone to be a bad cop, OOC? Now that's tearing at your vanilla routes. The LPI has good cops, but it has bad cops too. It does good work, but it's motives aren't always good.
' Wrote:What I find most hilarious is those complaining the loudest have neither been, nor have the desire to play the LPI.
Yet they seem to think they control the LPI.
So its ok to limit the LPI, but everyone else is good to go? Ah, but its ok, its just the LPI, they don't matter.
There is a word for that. Actually 2 different words come to mind. It seems both of those concepts are alive and well.
Ok, I have just finished this thread but I'm getting a bit tired of that first sentence of yours. Which you repeatedly have to use as a counter-attack to any Faction-complaint regarding the LPI.
This whole thing about every-time someone makes a statement about your faction you shout back: "WELL GO DO THE LPI CHALLENGE!!!!11111"
Just because they haven't flied for the LPI or been in the faction dosen't mean their opinion has any less value. Maybe I should make the Hale's Angels challenge, and every-time someone complaints about my group, I just shout back and tell them to make an Eagle flying as Vigilante ID being hated by both sides of the law. Or maybe I just do the reasonable thing and listen to what the fella has to say.
That said, thinking back now on the last thread, I can agree on putting slaves on Houston instead.
I am not part of LPI for long, but let me give you my personal point of view on this.
For the most part I do not understand the upcry caused by Zapp's announcement. I suppose that
1) it was not all understood plus
2) there still is an interst in the community for LPI as a faction.
ad 1) I think it has been clarified enough by now.
ad 2) that would be good.
Just for those who still would like to argue:
LP Incorporated is a private corporation that delivers a public service (just like any privately run hospital or security service group). LPI is not a non-profit organization, so the management has to do everything to raise profits and also to enhance the public image of LPI. Corruption is bad for the LPI image and it may reduce LPI profits, so if there is an issue with corruption, it needs to be adressed.
Also, it would never be in the economic interest of LPI to sell prisoners as slaves (looking at the ridiculous market price) as long as there is enough place in LPI prisons and work for the prisoners to do. Also it has been elaborated enough that there is not enough supply in the prisons to fulfill market demand.
Slaves being sold at an LPI facility would indicate at least that the facility houses a thriving slave market that is tolerated or operated by LPI. This definitively does not fit my understanding of LPI RP. So the wish to have this slave market moved away from the LPI facility is a valid concern. In my opinion it should be moved to a place that does at least not suggest that prisoners are sold as slaves. Best would be a non-LPI base.
----------------------
Fighter pilot: You follow my fiancee. You are my rival. I brook no rivals. At six o'clock I shall be in Connecticut, alone, with my Sabre. Do you understand?
Battleship commander: Oh, thank you, that's a fighter pilot's proposal. I'm into heavy ordnance, and I have the choice of weapons. If I go, I shall take my battleship. And there shall be no mistake about the ammunition this time.
Oh come on guys, take the point and say yes or no. Selling Slaves on Sugarland is utter bull**** and should be removed. END OF STORY.
Oh, Corruption. I do believe there is more than a modicum of corruption in the Liberty Police, for several reasons. Low pay, dubious characters, stressful jobs. Even those who would not 'traditionally' take bribes for moral qualms can do so, because it can be seen as justified, just some extra payment for the job. The top level management is trying to stamp out the corruption? All well and good. But chances of them being completely successful? nearly nil.
Allow me to commit Heresy and take a RL example, Indian Police. Widely regarded as one of the more corrupt forces in existence, The Government as well as Police management tries very hard to make policies to curb such practices. Sure, they have some effect, as people are scared off/some are caught. But quite a bit of them continue, or find new ways of doing corrupt practices. It's like a drug. Once you are hooked, It's hard to let go.
All that being said, I wouldn't say LPI is 100% corrupt, but it does have a wide streak of corruption within it, that will only be cured with time.