Independent Traders

[Armageddon]

I fly an =CR= Trader and do my best to RP. I do a run similar to the one you state except with more jumps. I think the one everyone else does is really bad anyway. I agree there should be some rule over Indy transports but dont make it so they can t fly one. Maybe one of the smaller transports like below 2500 cargo.

The thing is people need to know more trade routes as all i see is people hopping back and forth on the 3 jump one.

The thing i find more annoying is the traders who say they would rather die than pay a fine. I personally pay the fine as in RP you would not want to DIE!!! And lose the transport you have worked hard for. More rules are not the answer. Just people need knowledge of different trade routes. A simple option i believe is have high level NPC's with powerful CD's at the Jumps to some of the more profitable runs. Then you would more than likely have to hire an "escort" Instant RP there. And the escort would want some money for the job so it gives the Mercs something to do.

Might get rid of some of the traders as well.

[Why?]

I fly an =CR= Trader and do my best to RP. I do a run similar to the one you state except with more jumps. I think the one everyone else does is really bad anyway. I agree there should be some rule over Indy transports but dont make it so they can t fly one. Maybe one of the smaller transports like below 2500 cargo.

The thing is people need to know more trade routes as all i see is people hopping back and forth on the 3 jump one.

The thing i find more annoying is the traders who say they would rather die than pay a fine. I personally pay the fine as in RP you would not want to DIE!!! And lose the transport you have worked hard for. More rules are not the answer. Just people need knowledge of different trade routes. A simple option i believe is have high level NPC's with powerful CD's at the Jumps to some of the more profitable runs. Then you would more than likely have to hire an "escort" Instant RP there. And the escort would want some money for the job so it gives the Mercs something to do.

Might get rid of some of the traders as well.

There are high level NPC's at the popular one. Wild in fact are there. However the fighters simply are not powerful enough to blast a high level transport. Maybe if you planted a Wild battleship right at the hole in sigma 13, that would have the desired consequences.

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Hmm, where have I come? Why does it seem so familiar to this one?

[BaconSoda]

Wars on disco, don't make me laugh. Lets see, we have Bretonia against Kusari, but oh wait, they both seem to think there is no war. I don't think I've ever seen a KNF in Bretonia or vice versa.

The second one is the Outcast/Corsair thing. Its been built up to include almost every unlawful faction on the system, yet the corsairs tend to just sit in Gamma, or go pirate in Sigma 13 or New Berlin.

Yea, the wars don't get participated in too much, sadly.

So I don't think you're going to get anyone to go for 'economic wars.'

And mostly what your idea would do is force everyone to the jump holes. Since the most popular route has one of those, traders aren't afraid to use them.

Frankly, to control the traders without changing the trade routes in the mod, you'd need a terrorist or two sitting at that jump hole blasting everyone.

While your idea definately has the correct destination in mind, practically I do not think it would take the server to that destination.

No one participates in wars ye say? Well, obviously Kyushu belongs to the Bretonians now as they seem to intrude in there on a weekly basis. Also, have you ever heard of the Battle of Sigma-13, where the Corsairs/Farmer's Alliance took down the Kana, the Blood Dragon Flagship in a series of two battles (I was only in the first one:()? Or how about the Corsair/Outcast battles every weekend? In fact, yesterday Ze'ev rounded up the [AFA] for an attack on an Outcast force massing in Tau-23 (we didn't hit em since they were training, but it was a nice show of force none the less). There are good people fighting our wars, and just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't happening

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[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.

[BaconSoda]

Oh, and to those people who think that majority of normal people couldn't start there own business, that is just plain wrong. In the USA, most successful businesses are small businesses. Companies 99% of the country will never hear about, but they make money and succeed at what they do.

The only difference is on FL you can look and see where everyone is and what they are doing. You will never know the names of the majority of small business owners.

I think you're forgetting the fact the 85% of all small businesses fail in their first year, and of those that stay afloat, 50% fail within the next four (Statistics supplied by: Primerica Financial Services) mainly because they can't keep up with the loans they took out to start those businesses.

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[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.

[Why?]

No one participates in wars ye say? Well, obviously Kyushu belongs to the Bretonians now as they seem to intrude in there on a weekly basis. Also, have you ever heard of the Battle of Sigma-13, where the Corsairs/Farmer's Alliance took down the Kana, the Blood Dragon Flagship in a series of two battles (I was only in the first one:()? Or how about the Corsair/Outcast battles every weekend? In fact, yesterday Ze'ev rounded up the [AFA] for an attack on an Outcast force massing in Tau-23 (we didn't hit em since they were training, but it was a nice show of force none the less). There are good people fighting our wars, and just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't happening

I most certainly have never said I have seen everything, but I have been on the server way too much lately, and I haven't seen much. Now maybe it is the server rules that make it harder, or maybe I am on during the wrong times, but seeing a ton of KNF ships just sitting in New Tokyo or Kyushu doing basically nothing, or seeing the tons of corsairs sitting in gamma just chatting, makes me think the wars aren't being participated in as much as they could be. Or it could be that the server is just too busy for such a thing to be noticed. But with the immense number of people that are on the server, I would think the warring factions would be blasting away at each other all the time. Even on a server as busy as Disco is, a war you'd think would be obvious.

Please, do not think this is in any way an attack on the server, it is just an observation of what I have seen.

I think you're forgetting the fact the 85% of all small businesses fail in their first year, and of those that stay afloat, 50% fail within the next four (Statistics supplied by: Primerica Financial Services) mainly because they can't keep up with the loans they took out to start those businesses.

A lot of people fail at starting businesses. However that does not mean they don't keep trying, or that most of the businesses are large corporations. over half the American workforce works for small businesses according to the US small business administration. There is a reason it is called the Fortune 500, or 1000 at most. Those are the big companies.

The US Census Bureau states that as of 2004 there was over 19.5 million businesses with absolutely no payroll. That usually means that it is a 1 person business. And those companies earned over 870 million dollars that year.

In comparison, there were 5.8 million businesses that had employees.

Any way you cut it, and the census bereau cut it a few different ways, and smaller businesses outweigh large companies by almost 4 to 1.

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Hmm, where have I come? Why does it seem so familiar to this one?

[Eppy]

Voted no. I'm in the [IND], and we use Trader IDs because they allow slightly more RP freedom than the Interspace ID; taking away the Trader ID's transport capability would force us back into the Interspace ID, which would force us all to turn into instant goody-two-shoes. My medical Cardamine business would go down the tubes!:lol:But really, no. Old Eppy would have to stop being his split-personality self and stick with the raving cowboy side. Cabover Pete would have to be glued to a barstool. Our beloved "As Long as Nobody Sees it Didn't Happen" policy would be defunct, and that would spoil half the fun, now wouldn't it? And we'd have to, on principle, allow independents to apply for an exception, because some of them have good RP, but that creates a huge stack of paperwork for the Admins, who have more important things to do (namely, sanction trigger-happy pirates with grudges against old men in greatcoats flying a big red crosshair). Then there are ships like the Pirate Train that are tailor-made for independents, which would need to be reassigned or removed (which nobody wants to do...). Finally, it wouldn't solve the problem, because then we'll just have a bunch of Interspace IDed ships with no RP as compared to a bunch of Trader IDed ships with no RP. Don't Fix it if it Ain't a Decent Solution.

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Quick comment - we thought that Panzer was the Leader, Swift. -Agmen

Which Dreadnought was that?

One of your nine.

[BaconSoda]

I most certainly have never said I have seen everything, but I have been on the server way too much lately, and I haven't seen much. Now maybe it is the server rules that make it harder, or maybe I am on during the wrong times, but seeing a ton of KNF ships just sitting in New Tokyo or Kyushu doing basically nothing, or seeing the tons of corsairs sitting in gamma just chatting, makes me think the wars aren't being participated in as much as they could be. Or it could be that the server is just too busy for such a thing to be noticed. But with the immense number of people that are on the server, I would think the warring factions would be blasting away at each other all the time. Even on a server as busy as Disco is, a war you'd think would be obvious.

Please, do not think this is in any way an attack on the server, it is just an observation of what I have seen.
A lot of people fail at starting businesses. However that does not mean they don't keep trying, or that most of the businesses are large corporations. over half the American workforce works for small businesses according to the US small business administration. There is a reason it is called the Fortune 500, or 1000 at most. Those are the big companies.

The US Census Bureau states that as of 2004 there was over 19.5 million businesses with absolutely no payroll. That usually means that it is a 1 person business. And those companies earned over 870 million dollars that year.

In comparison, there were 5.8 million businesses that had employees.

Any way you cut it, and the census bereau cut it a few different ways, and smaller businesses outweigh large companies by almost 4 to 1.

Well, today I saw the KNF attack Dundee, so I still am not sure about how you can't see a war going on...

I don't really want to see a statistics fight, so I'm going to opt out of responding to that part. We both have completely different views on the matter, it seems, and I'm not going to try to take away yours, since we're both pretty adamant about it (and my best attempts at rhetoric seem to have failed).

Voted no. I'm in the [IND], and we use Trader IDs because they allow slightly more RP freedom than the Interspace ID; taking away the Trader ID's transport capability would force us back into the Interspace ID, which would force us all to turn into instant goody-two-shoes. My medical Cardamine business would go down the tubes!:lol:But really, no. Old Eppy would have to stop being his split-personality self and stick with the raving cowboy side. Cabover Pete would have to be glued to a barstool. Our beloved "As Long as Nobody Sees it Didn't Happen" policy would be defunct, and that would spoil half the fun, now wouldn't it? And we'd have to, on principle, allow independents to apply for an exception, because some of them have good RP, but that creates a huge stack of paperwork for the Admins, who have more important things to do (namely, sanction trigger-happy pirates with grudges against old men in greatcoats flying a big red crosshair). Then there are ships like the Pirate Train that are tailor-made for independents, which would need to be reassigned or removed (which nobody wants to do...). Finally, it wouldn't solve the problem, because then we'll just have a bunch of Interspace IDed ships with no RP as compared to a bunch of Trader IDed ships with no RP. Don't Fix it if it Ain't a Decent Solution.

Interspace ID doesn't really allow people to go anywhere besides New Berlin, New York, New Tokyo, and New London, so I don't know why everyone is grasping onto this idea that you can go anywhere with it. As stated before, they're more like the IRS than anything else, so they really shouldn't trade much....

I thought Pirate Train and Transports were for smugglers, being designed by the Liberty Rogues and all. Today I saw a trader ID'd Pirate Transport while flying with the AFA, and I asked the man where he got it, since the KNF was all about and I couldn't rightfully ask for donations. He simply responded: "Corsairs." Told me that "If you don't shoot them, they won't shoot you," which is a big difference in policy from when Sousuke last flew with them, and when I told him that, he gave no response...

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[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.

[Niznusan]

This may be much ado about nothing...I remember the Harris- McDuff run and that was ridiculous. The NB-NT run isn't the most profitable even with those commodities. As for not being able to buy a transport "realistically"....it's not like someone gave me the money for it. I worked hard for my tag and did mission after mission. Then I started off small time, with a Rhino and built my way up. I think most people who RP their traders do the same. Independent traders are, well, independent...and should not be forced to join a faction...even a trading one. I remember my first trader ( who has finally found a job) and an experience I had with a Junker named Xoria. I learned a whole lot about RP from the aftermath of that. Maybe you can find an opportunity to RP with the "grinders". Nerfing the trader ID is a bad idea. Just my two credits.

[wrathkin]

The holes in some arguments... make me itch.


Getting a Starflea - cheap? Can't be. It's a friggin space-going combat vehicle, for swearwords sake.
Getting a transport/freighter... well. Exactly how many 'small companies' have their own RORO? For that matter- how many lone soldiers of fortune have a Bradley, Leopard or Apache to drive around in? (SPACE-Bradley! Yeah baby!)

Anyway you look at it, even the poorest independent PC must be in the very top few ppm as to personal wealth. The 8000 starter credits should be able to feed a family for years, considering what you can buy for it. Lessee... how many military grade ship-to-ship missiles is that again? To compare, the 'ol AIM-120 goes for $386,000 a pop.

Face it, spaceship captains are not truckers, they are incorporated, wealthy beyond reason, or have other backing.


(eh, also, I don't care about the ID, either way)

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John Johnson - Master of Synth.Foods-Convoy|049
Hans Adler - Synth Foods escort wing

Sebastian Wrath - Zoner in a Temporary Autonomous Zone ([TAZ]Punchin'Seb)

[n0cha]

(I cut out most of the body of the quotes to shorten the post. Use the link to the original post if you want to read the whole thing.)

Ok, first off:

The holes in some arguments... make me itch.
<cut>
Face it, spaceship captains are not truckers, they are incorporated, wealthy beyond reason, or have other backing.
(eh, also, I don't care about the ID, either way)

Wrathkin, you are absolutely right.
Unfortunately, for the sake of the game, I think we have to depart from reality where your arguments are concerned and just for a second imagine that spaceships in Sirius are like cars and boats on good old Earth.
So comparing a freighter with a Mac Truck and a transport with an Oil tanker, yeah. Taking into account that it's actually billion dollar spacefaring technology armed with deadly military-grade weaponry, nope.
After all, it wasn't very hard for mister Edison Trent to get a free starflier right off the bat, without any assets, connections, references or proof of previous experience as a pilot, was it? From a government agency even.

Just a thought,
If the House owned systems started to tax traders, not Pirate tax lol but Import/export tax. How it could work for example is say for the Liberty System only the Liberty Police/Navy can legally do it. Also only can be done at Official Jump Gates that Enter/Leave the Liberty Controlled System, meaning all jump holes are not covered or taxed. (Smugglers’ are still safe haha).
<cut>
Of course this is just a suggestion to help remedy the overflow of Indy traders, but either way I think it would be an interesting thing to see happen.

Wars on disco, don't make me laugh. Lets see, we have Bretonia against Kusari, but oh wait, they both seem to think there is no war. I don't think I've ever seen a KNF in Bretonia or vice versa.
<cut>
While your idea definately has the correct destination in mind, practically I do not think it would take the server to that destination.

I think Jaigan's suggestion is an excellent one (but what do I know) and I think Why? has misinterpreted it.
What I think Jaigan suggests is that government officials are allowed to tax all independent traders entering their respective airspace anywhere. So for instance an indy coming from Bering into Texas could be taxed, at the jumpgate, by the LPI. Probably not the exorbitant amounts the pirates demand, but something reasonable depending on their rank and cargo, yet high enough to encourage those traders to either sneak in by some roundabout way, thereby making their route take longer and thus be less efficient, or joining one of the companies. (Or doing in-house runs, although that's probably not likely.)
The corporation-affiliated traders would be exempt, because in theory their company pays their taxes.
In fact, that shouldn't even have to be just theory, if it would be limited to player-faction-affiliated traders only. That way, law enforcement factions would no longer have the need for an outside source of income (like supporting trader characters).

As an added effect, it would give the law enforcers something else to do besides hanging around in their home system.
And it would also create extra opportunities for roleplay.

EDIT: An alternative option would be to let them pay docking fees. Very logical, very RP and might be easier to enforce than border tax. Then again, maybe not.

And now for something completely different.
Speaking as a relative newcomer to Discovery and someone who apparently started out in Camp Bad and is now fervently trying to be a part of Camp Good:
When I first joined this server, I started a trader character. Well, of course, what else should I do?
I wanted to look around, make some money, meet some people, get a feel of things. It only seemed logical.
And I even drank from the devil's cup by figuring that, hey, those Zoners got it all figured out. Staying neutral, that's the thing, I gotta get myself one of those Zoner ID's.
I realize now how lame that is, but I didn't then. It only seemed like the logical thing to do.
It was only after I got completely drawn into the roleplay, after I had spent hour after hour, day after day reading everything there was to read on the forums, that I saw the bigger picture.
I'm not really sure where I'm going with this story, but I guess the point is that we have to keep in mind that not all of these people are evil money-grinding self-absorbed powergamers.
It just takes a pretty big effort to get into a community like this and basically, it requires quite a lot of reading to know what is really going on, especially when you're new. And that can be a serious threshold to a lot of people.
Sometimes, it just takes a bit of positive effort to pull someone in.
For me, it was when I started to look for more depth to the game by joining a faction. I went to the forums and started to read all the faction recruitment topics. Fortunately, it was easter, so I had a couple of days off, because once I started reading there was really no end to it. Now I'm a pretty avid reader, I usually finish a serious book about every 2 weeks, but lately, I haven't even had time for that anymore, because I spend hour after hour each day just reading up on things right here. Getting to know all the characters, stories and rules. What's done and what's not. What is what, but mostly why.
A lot of people are just drawn here because it is the most populous server around. And at first they'll just want to make money, get a bad-ass ship and shoot some people. But that'll wear off.

Anyway, long story short, I think with enough positive effort, a lot of souls can be saved.
Just something to think about. Otherwise just ignore it as just another rant.

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Max Power - Mercenary, Drifter
Max Zorin - Lane Hacker


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