Are we killing Discovery?

[song]

I have wondered why this is never addressed and Kusari seems to be the one place where it works--due to the singular factions there--there aren't multiple factions fighting for the same one.

The problem with independents is just that--they are independent. The problem with factions is the same thing--with mob mentality and us versus them thrown in to boot. Each faction has its own independent attitude. They are just "independents" on steroids .

Nowhere in the mod rules does it say "factions determine all other players role play". Good players that join together in a faction get to represent and be credited for their good play--and good independents should be the same.

Us is them and them is us. This whole us vs them mindset has to stop. I sympathize with the independents not because I think they are right or better but because the one good point they have is they aren't trying to force people to role play by their rules. Factions could learn from that if they were smart. Role play your own rules is fine--force them onto others as their role play? No one gave you that right--though more and more, I see factions claiming that right as if they do have it.

Every governmental in-game faction needs a universally "hard coded" legal/structural/rank codex/chain of command--NOT controlled by a faction.

It needs to be built in. I think ideally, their should be ACTUAL rules (not demands by factions they tell everyone are rules) that determine who is an admiral, how many admirals and cap ships there are and then let ALL the players of that faction vote regularly on who is to be the admiral or leader.

Then you can have an individual, an official faction leader or an unofficial one be "commander in chief" and have the authority to declare someone "lawful" or "unlawful" in their rank or ship. If he is merely following set rules and is elected to that position.

Make an AUTHORITATIVE legal codex for every group and have a democratic vote by registered players for the positions in those groups. this is an alternative to the chaos, anger, resentment and bullying that are used to force play now. That's what's "killing' Discovery (I think its growing is all). This is no different than if three guys played D&D together for five years and then one night the whole neighborhood shows up to play. Be selfish and kick everyone out so just the three can play or realize you have an opportunity to grow the game. Same here.

Players could follow a variant of the "two faction" rule and only be allowed to vote in two factions. So they aren't voting for every faction position in the game and using their faction members to control every other one.

There is nothing preventing having say the LPI (for example) have a UNIVERSAL (in Liberty) fine for specific crimes, rules of engagement, etc. that are enforced by and bind anyone with the ID. Same with any other group.

Otherwise we are back to, "My faction is biggest and was here first, we made ourselves admiral now shut up and obey or be KOSed.

You have a new mod coming up and its a GREAT chance to sweep this "too many chiefs and not enough indians" syndrome away.

The problem isn't having restrictions it having one player (or group of players) try to dictate them over another.

Can someone with "clout" on here--maybe you so-called "leaders of the server"--start a move to make this happen? That would be something factions could set in motion--by supporting the idea (not hijacking or commandeering it).

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<span style="font-family:System">Hogosha Exile</span>
The Journal of Benjo Dokosai

visit

[chovynz]

Interesting Idea you have there Shigeo.

Just taking it further, perhaps computer factions could have guidelines for RP.
And everyone is Rp'd from that?

Maybe the Admins (or the forum community) could write up computer
faction procedures that make sense, and then we have no leaders other
than the guidelines? Everyone is equal in a sense. Then if you want to RP
a commodore you can, but you can see the responsibilities of a commodore.

What if we do away with ranks all together?

For example, if we were to write up a LSF crime / Fine list then the LSF
players would be able to choose whether they want to enforce those rules
as an LSF agent. Same for Navy and SA.

I think part of the problem is that many people dont know what is expected
of a faction (and also their ZOI - which is what I noticed as a newb, and why
Im intending on making ZOI maps with the help of this community, so that
anyone can come here and see what those Zois are), so they make something
up , then the current factions see it and go..."Uh no." Stepping on good
thought out RP toes in the process.

The problem i see with that is that organisations HAVE to have a chain of
command. If we remove that then every Joe blogs will be RP'ing as the Director.

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Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.

[song]

Yeah--anything along that line. The "server" provides the guidelines for rank, penalties for crimes, etc.

I think the admins wouldn't want to be tinkering all the time with it but you could have the admins institute the equivalent of a constitutional convention where players voted on standing and pending regulations for their factions.

I watched my friends play D&D when it first started and noticed there were those who liked having a puzzle, with structure and order to put together and some who simply liked to use the game as a chance to have everyone hear their story.

If you want to tell stories as the primary goal, no one is going to ever be able to sort out the play. The structure makes everyone part of the same story.

Making new "rules" faction by faction, person by person isn't useful structure for the majority--that's structure that has overtaken purpose.

We just need a fixed foundation everyone builds from.
Just a little more is needed here.

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<span style="font-family:System">Hogosha Exile</span>
The Journal of Benjo Dokosai

visit

[Jihadjoe]

Hello everyone. *waves vigorously*

I came into this a tad late, but here are my two creds about faction/indy relations.


Factions have layed down a lot of the groundwork for the current diplomatic state of Disco. Indeed some (TBH amounst others) share their diplomacy with the entirty of the faction. In cases like this (which is widely accpeted as ok) I think the player faction has the right to lay down the law with the faction as a whole. The roleplay of factions does trump indie's roleplay as it involves more people. Now like it or not, a group is more inportant than a lone individual.

However I do believe that factions (especialy the 101st Eppy if you read this) need to comunicate what they're doing better and more calmly with the people who are willing to listen. Respecting the roleplay of an Indy is very very important. Most of the truely innovative rolpelay comes from indies, as they're not so constrained by faction politics. Factions should listen carefully to the indies and try to find a way to accomodate them provided their roleplay isn't utterly absurd... "I am a ninja pirate cyborg, with psyhic powers that flies a battleship on my own cos I bought it lolz" isn't going to wash with anyone, and factions are right to stop this kind of behaviour. However what factions shouldn't do is stop the slightly unorthodox RP that sometimes crops up. So long as it doesn't piss all over the established status of the faction as a whole then it should be seriously considered. Perhaps adding suggestions if it doesn't suit, rather than just saying "NO!".

If we all had a touch more understanding and respect for each other's roleplay rather than focusing, blinkered if you will, on one's own goals, then we would have far more constuctive communication between factions and indies.

In short...
Factions can, do and should weild a certain amount of power over certain things indies do (cap-ship purchase for instance), however they should respect individual roleplay and only outright refuse stuff that is obviously stupid, and in all cases communicate more, and give suggestions as to how to imporve the story to make it fit better with existing canon.

Indies should respect the fact that the official factions are the primary authority for the faction they roleplay as. Ask them before doing anything which could potentialy damage the factions (or another indie's) roleplay. I believe that indies should also inform (at least) a faction if they intend to buy a capship, and state what they're going to be using it for. That way we at least have some prior warning before the fleet of OC 'LOL' dessies decend upon manhatten, and can (with any luck) avoid it all together.

Angry communication would be avoided this way except when people refused to listen. Compromise is the key on this from BOTH sides.

None of this should be placed in the rules, however maybe we could have somewhere that all the faction specific rules are easily on display.

Another issue here is wether or not breaking a faction specific rule os sanctionable. I think not, however geniune respect for one another should come way before the rules anyway if we all had respect for each others roleplay then I'm sure there would be less sanctions anyway.

EDIT: N00bl3t, I have just read the RP for your Dessie again, and I quite like it It does in my opinion, need a few little minor adjustments however on the whole its quite good... I regard ANYONE who flies under Outcast colours as an Outcast, unless they are one of those 'ninja pirate cyborg from planet awesome in the awesome sector of the awesome pwnt you n00b galaxy' types. And then I don't regard them as being roleplayers, therefore not having a place on this server.

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[Le'Futile]

Well as far as indies go, alot are newer players, though quite a few may be experienced and theres abit of a learning curve for them that they still havent played through, learned proper game mannerisms and faction lore.

Communication is key, true, but my experience has shown some factions are on abit of a power trip. Thing with cap ships is, those larger then gunboats, most people will grow bored of them after abit and after they gain more experience in learning whats what in Disco and how to better RP the factions they are representing. Alot of the larger indie caps you see are what I call vigilante vessels, piloted by traders whom use them to get back at pirates for being "harrassed" per sae. And most die to a few fighters / bomber or gunboats that quickly pick them apart, no biggie really there.

I dont think Disco is suffering in participation, most days still quite over 130 people can be seen on during the peak hours. Proper role play, finding your niche within the game just takes some people abit of time.

Being a somewhat close knit game as far as people knowing others goes, has effected some gameplay from what I've seen. Such as in liberty, where some coppers ignore the actions of thier buddies, and foresakeing good RP over friendship. The fact that many vet players belong to multiple factions on both sides the law and play that to thier advantage can be a issue at times.

I started off as an idie for quite sometime, made my share of mistakes, dreamed of owning that big vessels, felt out the various factions, some more difficult to deal with then others, then slipped into my niche within the game, joined a few player factions, which in the end truely makes you a more rounded character, stronger RP grows with the interaction of more experienced players and gives you a good solid basis in which to propel your character from.

I believe that people should communicate the purchase of thier indie vessels to the owning factions, but approval isnt a must and not backed by any rule and would be oppressive in nature for someone to dictate what you can or cannot do in the game. Being tied to a player faction is different , as your aggreeing to abide by their rules. I think the only people really hurt by indie capships is other indies, because most factions when they see a indie cap or one working alone, quickly muster a force to quite the situation.

[bluntpencil2001]

Doesn't a thread like this come up every month?

Relax...

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[Reverend Del]

Doesn't a thread like this come up every month?

Relax...

I am relaxed but I've noticed that this time around it's gotten a lot more volatile, with folks on either side refusing to give any ground. That's the issue I'm trying to address, co-operation and comprimise. Let's everyone have fun that way.

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Saint Del is considered a holy healer of diseases of children, but also as a protector of cattle.

[Asymptotic]

I think the main point which I missed upon sparking the most recent argument is that I am not allowed to be an LSF independent, end of story. If I want to roleplay an LSF officer, I'll just have to join the faction. That's the situation (or at least according to Praetyre.)

[AdamantineFist]

because many factions force their members to start out in low end fighters.

...

The only problem with most independents is that they dont restrict themselves. They go 'all out' and try to powerplay, rather than giving themselves boundaries to RP within. My character has quite a bit of freedom but I always consider the consequences of my actions in-game before carrying them out. I dont go and attack some random system without considering what effect it will have on the rest of the order - both black squadron and independents.

The whole "start in a fighter" thing also discouraged me from joining Bs, as I originally had an Order gunboat. I wasn't that great in a fighter, and didn't want to lose my ship, so I didn't join. I now have an indie Order fighter as well. Very good point about those indies not restricting themselves, too. They need to start acting within the current framework we have set up before moving on to do other things. You can't just pop on and say "I'm Orillion, listen to me!"

I fly a cruiser.

People usually think "OMG POWERGAMING!" when I say "hand out orders"... it may look like that, but it isnt.

See, I dont tell people to go suicide themselves against battleships or anything unreasonable like that. The -only- time I start giving orders to other Order players (BS or independent) is when there are immediate threats to order space (keepers, BH's, liberty, smugglers, whatever), or when nobody is doing anything.

In the situation that these other players are just sitting around toledo with nothing to do (much like liberty and manhattan), I either organize an RP based event (checking out a nomad system, trying to collect nomad power cells, or infiltrating a house system) or ask them to help patrol order space - directing them to particular jump holes or stations to defend. All the while, we're ALL in a group - every time I log on I automatically check order space for hostiles, and immediately afterwards invite all order members I recognize into a single group so that we can be more organized.

Now, despite the fact that myself, and a lot of these other players I work with are 'indies' - I've seen a LOT more organization and teamwork out of them than I've seen in many other large/official factions. I hate to fall back on liberty since I bash them a lot for this... but lets take a look at the [SA].

That's what real, good indies should do.

All it takes is respecting other players and working WITH them and not AGAINST them.

Exactly. We need people to stop hating each other for being a bit different and start realizing that we CAN work together. Just because some of us are in factions and some aren't doesn't mean that we can't work side by side. Of course, part of respecting other players means respecting the rights and privileges that factions have won. The other part is recognizing that indies aren't all evil maniacs.

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[timmychen]

A point I would like to add:

Faction members, invite indies into your group. You invite them in, you set an example for them in group chat, yadda yadda yadda. They'll feel welcomed and more obliged to RP.

For example, there's a difference between being in a group and seeing orders being given, like "Target the gunboat!" or something, and being outside the group and just seeing lawfuls rape the unlawfuls. Or vice versa, as the case may be.