' Wrote:a) good idea, but I think most admins have angels chars atm already?
b) What I'd rather propose are proofs in SS that the player actually attempted to solve the issue in-game, in the repports. Repports without any pictures showing that the victim attempted to communicate with the persons would be denied by administration. The basis of your idea is very good, although the way you propose to apply it may contain a lot of flaws (will FILL admins inbox, requires to find the player on the forums, etc). Best is to attempt to solve the issues right away in game.
And yes, it is worth considering more:)In fact, it should be some kind of requirement to allow reports to be evaluated by admins ^^
Yes. The proposal is not thought very well or thoroughly, but the basic idea behind is that players should be made (or given chance) to try to work the problem out first among themselves. I know it's a lot of work, possibly.
As what can be done now right away I suggest that all the SS submitted to the admins must have a time visible. And your idea that SS should show an attempt to solve the problem before filing the sanction. Maybe the flhook command /pm <charname> <message> would be required since it gives the tools to make contact with the other party in case he/she has logged off at the time when you finally have time to talk to him/her. A "standard" message template for people to use when pming the other party, like "Hi, you broke some server rules. Can you please contact me, forum name, so we can discuss this?"
And SS that so Admins and the other party is kept in the loop. And I'll write a request to Server command thread asking for a new command that displays the last received pm to be shown again since I'm sure people will miss the received message.
I know these proposals seem tedious to carry out, but I feel people are now reporting too freely and threatening with sanctions, rule lawyering etc now.
So, to give away sanction, reports should include SS as follow:
-Proof of violation (like it is currently)
-Proof that there was an attempt to communicate with the player with time displayed
-Forum messages if the issue did not happen to be fixed in game.
-XX (24 or 36 or 48) Hours must have passed before the report is filled (to give time to the violator to log back and see the "pm" in-game).
If the issue was settled in-game (but the victim fills a report anyway, because of a personal grudge, manipulative ideas, etc), or there was no attempt done by the victim to solve the issue, the report would not be reviewed by administration or the sanction can be removed (depending on the case).
If the violator happens not to have any account on the forums, he could respond in a in-game pm as well to the victim. It is recommended that the violator SS the msg and the time in case he get sanctioned.
to further develop the idea, Victims are not allowed to ask more than X (1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5) millions from the violator. Victims are in their rights to ask to get back any lost equipment (codenames, armors, Torpedos/cannons (only?))
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Not sure why people frown upon server police. It keeps people honest. I was a member of the server police back in the old Lansdale Galactica server. Never once did I abuse it. They would also be subject to sanction and admins as anyone else would be.
I still would like to see one rule change where a pirate can shoot you before demanding a tax. Old debate yes but some are too stupid to know when to stop. That and a good many of us feel that once you start shooting, forget anything you may have gotten. If they demand and THEN you run, it's your fault if you die!
Sanctions? Still hard to defend if you are on the receiving end. So many use it as a first resort and the offender has no clue what's coming. How are they supposed to gather evidence in their behalf?
Even still, I think the admins here do a pretty good job. I'm sure it's tough and quite never ending. I even got some good omelette making advice from Mr. Del!! Thanks, Rev!!
So, to give away sanction, reports should always include time in the SS as follow:
-Proof of violation (like it is currently)
-Proof that there was an attempt to communicate with the player with time displayed
-Forum messages if the issue did not happen to be fixed in game.
-XX (24 or 36 or 48) Hours must have passed before the report is filled (to give time to the violator to log back and see the "pm" in-game).
If the issue was settled in-game (but the victim fills a report anyway, because of a personal grudge, manipulative ideas, etc), or there was no attempt done by the victim to solve the issue, the report would not be reviewed by administration or the sanction can be removed (depending on the case).
If the violator happens not to have any account on the forums, he could respond in a in-game pm as well to the victim. It is recommended that the violator SS the msg and the time in case he get sanctioned.
to further develop the idea, Victims are not allowed to ask more than X (1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5) millions from the violator. Victims are in their rights to ask to get back any lost equipment (codenames, armors, Torpedos/cannons (only?))
lets keep on the brainstorming
Modified your post a bit with bolded text.
When I feel violated in the game I don't first think about money or lost equipment. I think about setting things straight (not revengeful kind of way), so that he/she sees what he did wrong and let him know that he/she is ruining the fun for others. I've maybe got 2-3 cases over the year and half where my respectful words and non-hostile manner in expressing them have not achieved the result of player seeing error of his ways. It's usually the opposite, they thank me and move on.
So about your last suggestion. It's quite impossible to prove in SS that you lost this and that and I can see how it can be used to extort. Sure, I firmly believe that anyone who plays here with any consideration for other players and their fun are usually willing to compensate and the "victim" can ask for it.
All in all, everything depends on the attitudes of the people having the discussion. Even if your words are the most eloquent in the forums I can usually detect the intent and motivation behind them. The same goes to those who barely know how to speak/write English.
"Sure, I firmly believe that anyone who plays here with any consideration for other players and their fun are usually willing to compensate and the "victim" can ask for it."
That is why I wrote the last suggestion, myself I wasn't sure about it. I don't want players to always ask money from the violator... No, only be compensated if they lost something valuable. Maybe it is better to forget about the last suggestion?
As a new recruit to the Discovery server, maybe my observations might mean something to someone...
I've been playing Freelancer multiplayer on tons of servers over the last 6 or so years. One common thread I've always seen, from one server to the next, is the "Wild Wild West" mentality that people have, of just killing anyone and everyone, dock-camping, and pirating people of the same faction, or of corresponding reputation. In other words, Freelancer is just another PVP game to most people out there, apparently. And I always got so freaking sick of it, because, FOR GODS SAKE PEOPLE, IF YOU WANT TO KILL KILL KILL, JUST PLAY QUAKE OR HALO OR SOMETHING!!!!
Nothing was ever worse than dealing with the lolwhutters, and being attacked in a Starflier, right after spawning a brand new character and just trying to go out and mine a little bit. And sure, you can complain to an admin or two, but their response was always "Well, you could defend yourself?" I got news for you, I shouldn't HAVE to defend myself from some punk kid with no friends sitting in his darkened bedroom, with the sole goal of pissing people off in cyberspace. So yeah, sure, I could then give up my character's intended roleplay, and just go back to base, purchase a heavy fighter and class 9 weaps, and spend my time seeking revenge on the lolwhutters... but that would mean THEY HAVE WON, because I am now doing something entirely different than what I intended to do when I double-clicked that Freelancer icon on my desktop.
That brings me to the Discovery server...
I got tired of all that crap. I already KNOW I can kick a$$ in a PVP fight when I have a bada$$ ship and bada$$ weapons. I was tired of just having to deal with the lolwhutters and sad little boys with no chance of ever getting a girlfriend who sit at home and take out their frustrations on people who DO have friends and relationships, and jobs, and redeeming qualities of any sort, who come to Freelancer to do some role-playing and flex their cognitive muscles. So I purposefully began seeking a server with rules, and organization, and active admins and mods who actually ENFORCE these rules. One thing led to another and I found Discovery. I created a character, went out into space, prepared myself to be attacked as soon as I came out from the planet, and lo and behold... I was able to fly into the helium field and begin mining!!
I thought to myself, "Okay, maybe I was just lucky, this place probably has the same amount of garbage players as the other servers," but continued to mine, sell the helium on the planet, and return. Sure enough, not even 15 game-minutes in, at only like level 15 or something, as I was preparing to dock on the planet, someone began firing at me. No warning, no nothing. I just saw my shield starting to disappear. Now, this person just happened to suck, so even though they were firing at a "sitting duck" I was able to use shield batteries until I was safely inside the planet. But when I landed, I noticed in system chat that other people were being affected by the same jerk, and the admins caught wind of it all, and by the time I made it back into space, this character had been kicked off the server.
I know I'm rambling, but I just want to say that THAT IS THE KIND OF ACTION I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR IN A FREELANCER SERVER!!!!! Thank you, all you admins and mods involved in establishing/enforcing rules. The rules are in place, people don't follow the rules, and they are booted out so that those of us who DO are able to role play in "peace" (so to speak). I know I'm new, so my opinion might not have the weight that a 3 yr veteran of this server might have, but for what it's worth, I want the staff to know that so far, in my observations, these rules WORK!! They have kept me here, and I know I'll keep coming back.
I mean, seriously, if you guys don't want rules, and you just want to pew pew and blow things up, do us all a favor and pick up a copy of Counterstrike, Halo, Area 51, or some other shoot 'em up game. Leave the grown folks alone... we're all using our intellects here on this server.
I'm happy to be here. Thanks again, Disco Staff!!!
' Wrote:Totally agree with that. One problem I had with the rules when I first joined the server though was the fact that it seemed some players could break them as they pleased as long as it was good RP! This will always be off putting to new players as just when they think they have a basic grasp of some rules they then get told that all they learned does not necessarily count. I have always maintained that there is absolutely no point whatsoever in creating so many bewildering rules to learn when they can be rendered moot so easily.
Another point worth making is just when a player finally gets the hang of the rules, he then has to discover that just about every official faction also has their own rules that they enforce and expect everyone to know!!
Yes ... bad enough to understand ambiguous server rules. Then you get faction rules where the faction treats their rules as if they were server rules. I remember faction members threatening to report people for being OORP by not following the faction rules. Here's one simple rule ... and I'm pretty sure its supportable by the server rules as written ... follow the RP of your faction ID. By this I mean mercenaries are not by nature hostile to lawfuls. Mercenaries are neutral. That means if you have a specific mercenary causing problems and attacking the LPI ... you place THAT mercenary on the most wanted list (like any other criminal). But you don't make every single mercenary on the server hostile to Liberty for one or two trouble makers.
@ Reverend Del: Don't need to hear every discussion you guys have in admin-land. All we need is an acknowledgment that you are addressing concerns. All it means is poking your head into the discussion and say, "we are discussing this at this very moment ... standby for a decision." And if someone PM's you about something ... don't ignore us. Bottom line ... be kind. Regarding the democracy thing ... this is a community of players. Think of this as we the customer telling the owner of the store what we'd like to see on the shelf. Don't be like Microsoft where they're the only game in town and say, "we don't care what you have to say because we know you'll come back regardless." That attitude just creates more animosity. May not be a democracy ... but its not a dictatorship either. What makes role play work is the players ... not the admins. Rules are supposed to keep people from abusing one another. They are not supposed to force a specific role play. By this I mean ... sanction people for being abusive ... but do NOT sanction people for role play violations ... if you do ... then we're a community where we RULE play instead of ROLE play. I do hope everyone knows the difference. I've spoken with quite a few people who've left the community for this very reason. Nobody likes to be stifled with over-burdensome rules. Role play is an art ... not a science. The only role play that should be judged is based on the ID infocard. If I have an LPI ID ... my LPI ID infocard explicitly states WHO my enemies and allies are. Anyone NOT on the enemy/ally list would be neutral. Instead ... what we have are people saying that Order are enemies with Outcasts ... why? ... because the Corsairs are enemies with Outcasts. But Order ID does not mention anything for or against Outcasts. So what has happened is we've extended a 2nd order relationship (an implied relationship) ... and we get people sanctioned for this. But when someone is a Zoner (who's ID specifically states they are allied with Order) ... we have no problem with them docking on Manhattan (an enemy of Order). Its hypocrisy ... lets be consistent shall we? Either we recognize 2nd order relationships or we don't. And this is just one example. I am happy to hear that the rules will be revamped and made clearer. But please consider some of the things we've mentioned here. For example ... if an infocard says something ... don't tell me, "its a typo ... just ignore it." No no no ... the correct answer is, "follow the infocard as written ... it will be corrected in the next version." I'd rather follow a poorly written infocard than to confuse everyone as to whether to follow them or not. If we cannot trust the infocard ... then get rid of them. As it stands now ... people use infocards ONLY if it supports THEM.
@ paddy h: Yes ... Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) ... a long forgotten practice.
@ Korrd: I don't think people want to be included in every decision the admins discuss. But when we have concerns we like to know that we're not being ignored. Your job is to provide balance without getting in everyone's way. Rules need to be simple and easily understood. Wasn't it Napoleon that said, "bring me the dumbest infantryman ... if he understands your plan we'll implement it." Not saying we need to find the dumbest person on the server ... but you've gotta be elementary with the rules. No nested if-then statements. An example ... "If you are killed in combat, then you log out or switch to another character for 30 minutes." There's no if you're killed in this situation, then this happens ... but if you're killed in this situation, then that happens ... but if this character did this before you were killed, then something else happens. Bottom line ... you got killed ... leave. There are too many variables ... please narrow them down to avoid ambiguity. I am glad to hear you acknowledge how server police become like the SS. But we've got em here. They're not necessarily admins ... most of these guys are regular players ... some are faction leaders. I remember a while back there were certain Liberty faction leaders that treated Liberty as if they ACTUALLY owned Liberty and had the power to sanction. I've had a few firestorm discussions in the forums with them as well ... SA, Bs|, RM come to mind ... this was a while back though.
I have absolutely no problem with the rules as stated. It took me awhile to figure out how the rules applied. One thing that helped was reading the sanction reports. When I filled out my navy application, I read as many sanction reports as possible to see what exactly was acceptable and what wasn't. The questions on the Navy application were difficult to say the least. It took two hours of intense studying to be able to answer the 'rules' part of the test.
This is where old players can help out the new ones. Lend a kind hand toward those who need help understanding the complexities of things like: When to engage, with whom do you engage and when you are allowed to re-engage and when you are not. This is just an example. We can help out anyone with any rule that is getting broken or misapplied.
The rules that I do have difficulty with are the faction rules that are almost impossible to remember. Specifically, the embargo rules between Liberty and Rheinland. I play both LN and LPI and I have to say, I can't commit to memory every cargo item that is allowed and every faction that is allowed, or not allowed to carry it. I'm begging for some simplification. Speaking for myself, I don't even do trade embargo anymore. I'm afraid I will stop someone for the wrong reason, or for carrying some cargo, that is an allowed exception to the embargo.
Also, I have to say that it gets annoying when the faction rules get changed so frequently. For example, LPI were told to lock docking and mooring gates on suspected smugglers who we felt were in danger of quick docking past our embargo. Now, that is not allowed. The more frequently we change the rules, the harder it is for people to keep up with the changes. It would be nice to have some consistancy. Again, simplification would help in this regard.
I do enjoy playing freelancer. I don't mind the rules. I just don't want to be deluged with them, both on a general and a faction basis. It seems to me that you can't force people to roleplay. This game is like anything else: you get what you put into it. This applies to rp. Keep it simple. Help those who want help. Ignore, if possible, those who don't. And if everything you try fails, go to the Admins.
It could just be my imagination but all these new rules tend to 'appear' just after a big bust up on the forums about who did what to whom, how and whats being done about it (or not).
Quotes like 'It's legal' or 'It's not in the rules' tend to get bandied around a lot.
People no longer see the admin as just that, admin. They see them as the sherriff, righting the wrongs etc. A lot of people don't want to see justice, they want revenge. Admin have a very hard time of it, dedicating a lot of time here for us (the players) and getting a lot less game time themselves.
Sadly, a lot of people don't overly concern themselves with educating the people who 'mess up' and just hit the 'report' button. I admit some people don't educate easily but admins only deal with reports, which is down to us (and the idiots who do it right infront of them).
As someone said elsewhere on this forum, it's a game and it happens. The bottom line is to have fun and if it isn't fun, stop playing. We are making this problem ourselves by the constant questioning etc. Just accept it and move on or you'll still get sanctioned AND get a new rule.
If you really can't live without 7 days of FL, you don't need more bandwidth, you need a doctor.
I have a real opposition to the proposed requirement to provide proof of contact with a rules violator. From what I've experienced, rule breakers fall into two main categories:
-New players, who don't know / understand the rules. Typical violations are F1, pvp rules and swearing.
-Settled players, who know the rules, yet still violate them (intentionally or unintentionally).
The problem with the proposal is that settled players do not need to know if they have violated the rules, as in many cases they already know. All players are supposed to know the rules, especially experienced players who should have a great understanding of what is required and expected. It'd be good to include evidence of contact between violator and victim when new players are concerned, as they may not know all about the tech chart and so on. Experienced players on the other hand, know about the rules and expectations, yet you still see them violating them. Talking to them in most cases is just added risk and pointless. They know better, you felt cheated by their violations, you report them.
People report for many reasons - revenge, they felt cheated by a rules violation, or with concern to the server. This proposal aims to stop revenge reporting, and to help out new players. This inadvertedly helps out settled players with influence. The ones who know about the technology use chart, yet still abuse it as they feel no one will report them. The ones who tell people they will hunt them down with their friends / faction / group if they report them. The players who clearly know about IDs and pvp rules, yet break them and don't get reported due to prestige or fear. Thankfully, violation reports now are quite anonymous (only admins can view the threads) which means reporters don't (often) get persecuted by these players. This proposal helps to remove that anonymity, as talking to the violator ensures he / she knows who eventually got them sanctioned. In some cases, typically with settled players violating the rules, this will just cause the reporter to be punished for trying to get justice.
I do not trust the player base enough to talk every violation over with violators. I know that people can and will exert their influence to make reporters feel guilty or to get revenge for getting them sanctioned. If a player gets a highly influencial / popular player sanctioned, then I expect that player would have a lot of added pressure on him after the sanction is posted. That's the sad situation - sanctions can be seen as a personal affair - both with reporting for revenge and violators getting revenge on their reporters.
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