Tech-nerf

[McNeo]

First an explanation how it works now:


Only change apart from numbers that is possible with the current plugin are to remove the multiplication by the number of guns.

I would do this. This is because it would eliminate discrepancies, such as somebody using an Inferno recieving less of a debuff than somebody using two krackens. It would also eliminate the use of key weaponry, such as tizonas, which tend to increase the effectiveness of the entire loadout by quite a large amount.

On the other hand, it would force people to take advantage of the entire faction line that they choose to debuff themselves with. For example, a Rogue with a Sabre, 7 Krackens and an Inferno (assuming they're all white to the rogue ID) would have the same debuff as a Rogue with a Sabre, 7 Sammaels and an Inferno. This would remove the incentive to use as much own-faction stuff as possible.

It's a hard choice to be honest, I would trial both out, but I still favour adopting it to make people go "all or nothing" so to speak.

[color=#FF0000]Playability/Balance note on green stuff

Green equipment needs to have some sort of reduction. Not for RP reasons but for faction population and balance reasons.

Without any reduction the factions with more allies (big factions like OCs, Corsairs) are always the clean winners and get most players as they can have any tech from all their allies together with biggest ZOI. It is impossible to make the smaller factions more attractive if anything they get will also be usable by the bigger factions.

Ex. Right now Rogues have some very nice guns which are meant to make them fun to play with their own ships. If Outcasts can use the same guns without any penalty do you think there will be many Rogues in own ships with own guns in Liberty?
No there will be Outcast ships with rogue guns.

As history have shown relying on players to keep this under control is not a good idea.

No penalty on allied stuff kills small factions and limits weapon/ship diversity.

With some penalty in place things can be made more different and interesting, the current 4.86 Rogue/Molly stuff shows what's possible.

I agree with your theory here, but Im concerned that the really small debuffs here simply wont be felt by the vast majority of players. You already made a post about how people "feel" changes, even when there are none or the changes are the opposite of what those people felt. But feelings guide people, so if they cannot feel the debuff, they will continue to use it anyway. Even then, what kind of debuff is using 2 Drake D's on a Titan (again, example)? The big plant can absorb the 8% (0.96^2 = 0.9216) decrease in plant output, and this is true for other high powerplant ships aswell.

This policy will create discrepancies with higher powerplant ships not feeling the same effect as lower powerplant ships, as people will easily manage to control their energy usage as if it were just a slightly lighter plant. This begs the question, what's the point?

Also, I do agree that people shouldnt be trusted on their own to enforce green tech sharing things. Even though Pilgrim makes a good point about how Corsairs and Hogosha handled that particular instance of sharing Hogosha tech, this is the exception and not the rule. People need their arms twisted the vast majority of the time.

[NixOlympica]

That makes thinks different?

It would definitely make things balanced, I thought that's what we are up to make here.

[Vito]

First an explanation how it works now:

Green guns:0.96^number of guns
Green ships: 0.9

White guns:0.89^number of guns
White ships: 0.75

Red guns:0.6^number of guns
Red ships: 0.6
Only change apart from numbers that is possible with the current plugin are to remove the multiplication by the number of guns.

This is much better for people that use a loadout of full white guns. But much worse for people who just have 1-2 green/white guns as "support".

Ideally the plugin should take into account the gun vs ship combination and then again this vs id and/or IFF.
Ex. Odin with Natters and Hessian IFF with merc ID would count as "green". While Odin with Tizonas and Hessian IFF will be "red". Now both of these are white. We'll see if we can change the plugin to do that.

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[color=#FF0000]Playability/Balance note on green stuff

Green equipment needs to have some sort of reduction. Not for RP reasons but for faction population and balance reasons.

Without any reduction the factions with more allies (big factions like OCs, Corsairs) are always the clean winners and get most players as they can have any tech from all their allies together with biggest ZOI. It is impossible to make the smaller factions more attractive if anything they get will also be usable by the bigger factions.

Ex. Right now Rogues have some very nice guns which are meant to make them fun to play with their own ships. If Outcasts can use the same guns without any penalty do you think there will be many Rogues in own ships with own guns in Liberty?
No there will be Outcast ships with rogue guns.

As history have shown relying on players to keep this under control is not a good idea.

No penalty on allied stuff kills small factions and limits weapon/ship diversity.

With some penalty in place things can be made more different and interesting, the current 4.86 Rogue/Molly stuff shows what's possible.

All that sounds really great, at least from where I'm standing. The gun multiplier should stay there and the red penalty should go to 40% or below.

Yes, bounty hunting will hurt a lot but unlimited ZOI with almost no RP restrictions must have a price. The IFF thing also sounds good because it will force mercs into actually following a RP instead of going "omg red dai!".

EDIT: I forgot to say this: tech sharing must be if not stopped then at least substantially reduced or else all the amazing variety of weapons, ships and factions Discovery offers us makes no sense and all the hard work put into developing it would be in vain

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[Friday]

Well it then becomes a question: What level of nerf will people respond to?

One can argue that people dont 'feel' a change - that doesnt stop them running out of power in a fight.

So at what point does an energy nerf overcome the synergy of using the 'best' PvP combo? I would argue we shold be aiming for the following:

Green = just enough nerf to cancel any synergy from shared tech. To avoid the factional impact as described my Mjolnir.

White = slightly worse nerf, and increasingly worse nerf the more white tech one uses. Offset by IFF for neutral IDs such as Freelancer/Merc.

Red = substantial nerf.

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[McNeo]

The entire premise behind my argument is that people tend to value their perception of reality much more highly than reality itself.

This means that, if the nerfs are being introduced to change the way that people behave, but they are in some cases so small that people can't experience them, then they will have failed to change the behaviour of those people. In this case, it makes those nerfs pointless.

And I can't think that these nerfs were introduced to do anything but change people's behaviour, as we wouldn't be nerfing white and red things by double-digit percentages (to encourage people to use their own stuff) otherwise.

[Friday]

The entire premise behind my argument is that people tend to value their perception of reality much more highly than reality itself.

This means that, if the nerfs are being introduced to change the way that people behave, but they are in some cases so small that people can't experience them, then they will have failed to change the behaviour of those people. In this case, it makes those nerfs pointless.

And I can't think that these nerfs were introduced to do anything but change people's behaviour, as we wouldn't be nerfing white and red things by double-digit percentages (to encourage people to use their own stuff) otherwise.

I agree that feelings to influence behaviours a lot more than mere facts.

By that argument, I would suggest that the feelings of disappointment and loss that occur when people lose fights more frequently - due to lower power regen - can lead to the type of behaviour modification that you are suggesting.

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[Govedo13]

This policy will create discrepancies with higher powerplant ships not feeling the same effect as lower powerplant ships, as people will easily manage to control their energy usage as if it were just a slightly lighter plant. This begs the question, what's the point?

I also agree here- it is kinda unfair- you got the same nerf percent on all ships but the difference between 10k fighter core and 12k fighter core will be real big, the 12k core ships wont feel green tech nerf at all and will be fine with white tech nerf, if you apply this to 10k core ship the difference will be huge.
However I do agree with Vito here- the numbers are fine
Other then that I see no percent for SRPed ships will they get the green or the white nerf or red? Would they recieve "special" threatment or they will be like other IDs?
Because really i see no reason this ships to be ballanced otherwise then the rest.
If this is the case I would say to remove the whole plug in because the old "special" people stay untouched by it and it does not change nothing- I see no reason to nef the new players in the favour of the older ones really.

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Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)

[Xenosaga]

Green Cell: 90, because using your very own guns should still be encouraged
White Cell: 85, because this will require serious thinking about which parts to get
Red Cell: Around 60. There should be very little incentive to take tech of a hostile faction. The "I stole it RP" will be getting old quickly.

[mjolnir]

This policy will create discrepancies with higher powerplant ships not feeling the same effect as lower powerplant ships, as people will easily manage to control their energy usage as if it were just a slightly lighter plant. This begs the question, what's the point?

Yes it can be a bit unfair this way, however fighter powerplant recharge rates are actually relatively close to each other (850 900 1100 1160 1240 1340).

The point with green tech isn't really to make such a combination unusable, but more try to offset the advantage that could be gained at least a bit.

Ideally we could make the plugin to take into account the ship powerplants and increase the percentages depending on the ship.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[Not Espi]

What's the point? Sabre is still civillian, so pf.

BUT -

allies - 86.6
neutrals - 73.3
enemies - 60

no reasoning, just like everyone else. i just like the numbers so pfffrt.