' Wrote:Y'know Baltar, for all your bluster about 'being insulted' by Kurosora, You fired the first shot. See above. Anything that followed is to be expected. Grow a scar man, and wear it proudly. Quit bleedin' on the rest of us though, huh?
Ive read through this thread daily, trying to see if maybe, just maybe, we've gotten anywhere on trying to reformat/refine piracy rules to the GENERAL (not complete) agreement of the active consensus. And I have to wade through this egotistical, emotional, irrational morass, only to find that, no, we' havent gotten any further as the idea has been hijacked.
And Kurosora, You aint helpin' neither. But at least YOU offered repeated help in formatting the ruleset. Baltar...not so much.
ADMIN!
This needs to be in flood as apparently thats what it is. Perhaps a new thread that stays on target?
EDIT: If my sig weren't already tall enough...I'd ad this quote;
"You're asking for civility Trogdor? You're lecturing the wrong person if that's your goal." - Baltar
priceless
Ah ... throwing gasoline on the fire. Instead of trying to calm me down you do nothing but fan the flames. Keep it up and we'll never get back to the discussion. Keep telling me to "shut up" and you'll never get anywhere.
Now please note ... Kurosora and I have resolve OUR differences via PM and have continued our dialogue on the ISSUE AT HAND. If you care to join us, please do ... otherwise we'll just keep going on this tit-for-tat get nowhere bickering. Drop the "shut up" and other such comments and we'll get along.
' Wrote:Now if a pirate REALLY pirated for profit, would it be a good thing? Think about it...
You are a trader. You come across a pirate who steals for the sole purpose of funding all of his characters on the server. You fly a Train, he flies a barghest. You have 30mil, and are about to make 5mil with your next run. He is looking to purchase a new gunboat. He demands 5mil from you. What do you do?
My point is, we can have realism, but only to a degree to make things fair and fun for all.
Well ... my pirate is more of a Robin Hood type. He steals from the rich to give to the poor. So while my character is not out to get rich ... he IS out to make the rich man poorer.
' Wrote:No, you need to shut your mouth. You've made it quite clear that you're incapable of dropping it. You don't need an apology, you need to stop clicking on my thread looking for self-satisfaction.
And Finn, please stop throwing wood on the fire.
If anyone is throwing wood on the fire its you sir. Kurosora and I have resolved things via PM while you and TFinnegan continue to keep this off topic issue alive. Drop the "shut up" and "shut your mouth" crap now ... otherwise we'll keep going down this path. I've been back on topic for several posts now with Kurosora ... go back, read and keep up. As long as you want to continue telling me to "shut up" ... I'll keep my mouth wide open. I'm telling you right now ... you're not gonna shut me up by telling me to shut up. And you're not gonna get me off this off topic issue if you keep patronizing me. See me eye to eye on this and refrain from this "shut up" attitude and we can get back to a "civil" discussion.
That is ... unless you LIKE to argue ... in that case ... by all means continue telling me to "shut up."
Alright, in order to be civil we all need to:
1. Remove quotes from this thread from our sigs.
2. Stop bickering about civility and discuss the actual topic.
3. Ignore one another if the above are too difficult.
That goes for all of you.
EDIT: OR be as uncivilized as possible and just not actually care.
A way a lone a last a loved a long the riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay,
brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.
' Wrote:Alright, in order to be civil we all need to:
1. Remove quotes from this thread from our sigs.
2. Stop bickering about civility and discuss the actual topic.
3. Ignore one another if the above are too difficult.
That goes for all of you.
EDIT: OR be as uncivilized as possible and just not actually care.
You ask for 2 000 000, the trader tries to fool you giving 200 000. After you comply with the offer, you thinking to let it go. But you checked your funds, and thats not the price you damanded. The trader goes like "you cant shoot me nub I paid" .. and of course he explodes, becouse if you start roleplay a wall he simply cruisse away in mean time.
Quote:You ask for 2 000 000, the trader tries to fool you giving 200 000. After you comply with the offer, you thinking to let it go. But you checked your funds, and thats not the price you damanded. The trader goes like "you cant shoot me nub I paid" .. and of course he explodes, becouse if you start roleplay a wall he simply cruisse away in mean time.
When I'm caught on my trader, I always wait for confirmation from the 'pirate' that the funds were received and I'm free to go. If I intend to try and trick you, I simply won't pay and will start moving away under thrusters and open fire once the RP is done.
The situation you outline is one of dealing with bad sports, and that's a problem well outwith the scope of the discussion. Remedying that problem would be nearly impossible.
You ask for 2 000 000, the trader tries to fool you giving 200 000. After you comply with the offer, you thinking to let it go. But you checked your funds, and thats not the price you damanded. The trader goes like "you cant shoot me nub I paid" .. and of course he explodes, becouse if you start roleplay a wall he simply cruisse away in mean time.
Later you get sanctioned for doing it.
Fun isint it?
Actually ... this guy can get destroyed for not complying with your demands. If he gives you LESS than what you demanded and agreed on ... he's toast. But if he gives you MORE than you asked ... let him go. The rules just state you gotta make a demand prior to destroying him. If he fool'd you into taking 200k vs 200mil ... hit him hard and often. This guy would get pirated every time he saw me. But the guy that was compliant would likely only get pirated once and then I'd ignore him as he passed me the next few trips.
' Wrote:Considering the pirate has no clue how much you've paid for the cargo ... and knowing that the cargo is worth far more when you sell it ... I'd have to disagree with you on the demand limit idea. And it is not OORP to leave a trader with zero profit. The pirate is not out to help you get rich ... a pirate's role play is to himself rich.
By your own admission a pirates RP is to make himself rich. If a pirate leaves a trader (me) with no profit on my route that he pirates, I will simply cease using that route. Thus the pirate cannot pirate me; thus he does not become rich. Meaning, if you don't leave me some profit you ARE being OoRP. So you essentially disagreed with the the idea and this agreed with it. Please make up your mind.
' Wrote:But ... I will say this. The more money you make, the more money you can afford to pay the pirate. So ... if you make 10 mil in a single trip, you can surely afford to pay 10% to the pirate (a simple 1 mil). But by my experience I see way too many not even willing to give up 500k. This is what really offends me. Traders travel back and forth (endlessly) across pirate infested space (knowingly and willingly) and expect NOT to get pirated ... and then push for rules limiting what a pirate can demand. Its absurd. If anything is OORP its the trader that thinks a pirate is there to help him get rich ... and the trader that plows through hostile space expecting a free pass.
How would you know what the trader can afford? Just because he makes more than Joe Blow doesn't mean he can afford to pay more than Joe Blow; perhaps he is in debt to someone? Don't assume you know how the trader spends his cash. That is powergaming.
If I am making 10mil on the leg of the route you just pirated me on, sure I don't mind coughing up 1mil to ensure my survival. Problem in your little rant? Right here.
Quote:So ... if you make 10 mil in a single trip, you can surely afford to pay 10% to the pirate (a simple 1 mil). But by my experience I see way too many not even willing to give up 500k. This is what really offends me.
So you are mad because a trader refuses to pay 1mil because you think he is making 10mil on said run. While just prior to this you said this:
Quote:Considering the pirate has no clue how much you've paid for the cargo and knowing that the cargo is worth far more when you sell it
How would you know if I am making 10mil on this run? You don't know how much it cost me to get the cargo so you wouldn't know my profit margin. Thus why would you get mad if you demanded 1mil and I offered 500k? You don't know what my profit is (by your own admission). Its called RP; I am going to negotiate with you until I decide I have to pay or I am going to die, or some other condition is met.
------------------------
As for the re-pirating just after I pay you. I honestly like the out of sensor range idea; but believe it hard to enforce. I believe any rule on this matter would be hard to enforce and open to abuse by many methods. Honestly it is up to the player to not be an ass about it. Be intresting to read some ideas as people form them though.
' Wrote:By your own admission a pirates RP is to make himself rich. If a pirate leaves a trader (me) with no profit on my route that he pirates, I will simply cease using that route. Thus the pirate cannot pirate me; thus he does not become rich. Meaning, if you don't leave me some profit you ARE being OoRP. So you essentially disagreed with the the idea and this agreed with it. Please make up your mind.
Splitting hairs ... there's always traders on that route. And when the traders move to a new route ... the pirates follow. Pirates don't hang around where there's no profit. They go where the traders go.
If you know about economics ... the government is like a pirate. They take lots of money from you every year but leave you enough to live on and make more so they can take more. A pirate knows you need to maintain a profit margin in order to continue going back and forth. The more you go back and forth the more the pirate makes.
I'm not in conflict with myself ... but you apparently don't get it. My particular character is more about getting profits from the rich to give to the poor (who are oppressed by big mega corporations). I know its difficult for you to grasp ... but at least I've got more role play than the typical trader who's not role playing a corporate trader. Most typical traders are only building up enough cash to trade their transports in for a battleship or some other capship to go pew pew with.
Quote:How would you know what the trader can afford? Just because he makes more than Joe Blow doesn't mean he can afford to pay more than Joe Blow; perhaps he is in debt to someone? Don't assume you know how the trader spends his cash. That is powergaming.
Well ... if we could get a mod to the server that turns off the ability for us to see what level a character is we'd have a hard time figuring out what you can afford. But as it is ... I can see what level you are and ... ahem ... judging by the size of your ship (amount of cargo space) and the expensive equipment you have mounted ... I'm pretty sure I can guess at what you can afford. If you fly a Tanker ... my guess is you can afford 10 mil. If you fly a Dromedary ... I'm guessing you might be able to afford 250k ... maybe more. Its really not that difficult to determine what to demand. And if a trader says he cannot afford it ... well ... guess I'll just demand 100% of the cargo ... and don't care whether I've got room for it or not. I'll destroy what I can't haul or I'll call in some buddies.
As to his debt ... not my problem. Guess he'll have to work a bit harder. Powergaming would also include the trader refusing to role play. I can think of many instances where a Liner with "Passengers" as cargo flies by and the guy says he can't afford 2 mil. Gimme a break ... role play would tell me that each of those 2500 passengers can afford to open their wallets (and I bet many of them are rich tourists). Not to mention the jewelry and other items of value that can be taken from those passengers. Passengers are not like other bits of cargo.
Quote:If I am making 10mil on the leg of the route you just pirated me on, sure I don't mind coughing up 1mil to ensure my survival. Problem in your little rant? Right here.
I'm not the one ranting ... you are. I'm just telling you how things are. And I don't usually demand much. For the most part I only ask 500k because I know I've got a better chance getting paid than if I demanded more.
Congrats if you make 10 mil on a leg ... that means about 20 mil on a round trip. Sorry ... but if you say that I'm supposed to know how much things cost ... well ... then I know you can afford it. But if you move along to a new route ... guess what ... chances are I DON'T know what you bought the stuff for.
Problem with your rant is ... you make too many assumptions about what a pirate knows and what a pirate is willing to accept. A pirate's primary source of income is you ... the trader. That's his career ... piracy. There is no other source of income. If he had some other source of income, why would he need to pirate?
Quote:So you are mad because a trader refuses to pay 1mil because you think he is making 10mil on said run. While just prior to this you said this:
How would you know if I am making 10mil on this run? You don't know how much it cost me to get the cargo so you wouldn't know my profit margin. Thus why would you get mad if you demanded 1mil and I offered 500k? You don't know what my profit is (by your own admission). Its called RP; I am going to negotiate with you until I decide I have to pay or I am going to die, or some other condition is met.
I NEVER said I was mad. Where do you get this me being mad bit? Again ... you're making assumptions here.
And I'm beginning to think you just like to argue regardless of what I say. Listen ... you're micro-role playing here. You're going into detail that nobody really cares about. You're just trying to justify your not wanting to pay. Hear it all the time.
Bottom line ... if you wanna role play that you can't afford it, fine ... but if the pirate doesn't buy your "I'm poor" bit ... you can't really blame him. We get all kinds of excuses as to why a trader cannot pay. We've been lied to way too many times and we've come accustomed to being lied to ... so ... when we get the "I can't afford that" ... we're likely to shrug and say "don't care ... pay it or drop all your cargo." One of two things are gonna happen ... 1) we get paid (in cargo or credits) and you go on your merry way ... or 2) your ship explodes and we gather up whatever cargo didn't get destroyed in the explosion.
Quote:As for the re-pirating just after I pay you. I honestly like the out of sensor range idea; but believe it hard to enforce. I believe any rule on this matter would be hard to enforce and open to abuse by many methods. Honestly it is up to the player to not be an ass about it. Be intresting to read some ideas as people form them though.
Making a new rule for EVERY micro-event that comes up doesn't work ... it only makes people mad.
I've been role playing a pirate for at least 2 or 3 years now. I've seen all kinds of idiocy. The most annoying are the traders that NEVER speak, continually hit cruise as soon as they're stopped, rush the jump holes (even though they go through hostile space) and then whine on the forums because the pirates are annoying them on their routes. I'd say we got a 25% chance of running across a trader who's actually willing to role play with us. All too often we just get silence or screaming about "leave me alone" ... "kill me its cheaper" ... and other ridiculous comments. We'd get the F1'ing traders (which is why we now have the F1 rule). So you'll have to understand where I'm coming from here to get why I'm a bit negative toward traders ... ESPECIALLY when these traders go to the forums and complain about pirates and try to force pirates into some nerfed role play. Traders are typically the one's calling for new rules to contain pirates. Don't hear a lot of pirates in the forums creating a tread about "In regards to trading." Please note here that THIS thread is "In regards to piracy."
You are in still ranting and conflicting with yourself. My reasons for saying this? See below.
Quote:A pirate's primary source of income is you ... the trader. That's his career ... piracy. There is no other source of income. If he had some other source of income, why would he need to pirate?
A pirate's primary source of income is a trader. Primary would indicate another source is avaiblable yet the very next sentence you act like he has no other source of income. Semantics, but I had to!
To my real reasoning.
Quote:A pirate's primary source of income is you ... the trader. That's his career ... piracy. There is no other source of income. If he had some other source of income, why would he need to pirate?
Pirates income is a trader. If a trader makes no profit he won't trade. If he doesn't trade a pirate cannot pirate, hence he has no income. So, contrary to you claiming it isn't OoRP for a pirate to leave a trader with no profits; it is.
As for you assuming I am here to whine and cry to have pirates role play nerf'd. I will direct you to the end of the post you quoted where I clearly stated I think the issue at hand should be left up to the player not to be an ass. Any rule would be hard to enforce. I don't think we need anymore rules on piracy; just to clarify the ones we have. This topic wasn't made to nerf your role play; it was made with the good intention of preventing the lolwutters from being dicks while at the same time playing within the servers rules, thus not being able to sanctin them or correct them for being dicks.
You have turned this thread into a flamefest war zone because you were insulted after insulting another person. You are the one assuming people are here to nerf your role play.
Get. Over. Yourself. This server isn't made up of people that want to ruin your day Baltar; quit acting like it is.
Quote:Ah ... throwing gasoline on the fire. Instead of trying to calm me down you do nothing but fan the flames. Keep it up and we'll never get back to the discussion. Keep telling me to "shut up" and you'll never get anywhere.
Now please note ... Kurosora and I have resolve OUR differences via PM and have continued our dialogue on the ISSUE AT HAND. If you care to join us, please do ... otherwise we'll just keep going on this tit-for-tat get nowhere bickering. Drop the "shut up" and other such comments and we'll get along.
How about being a man (or woman) and dropping it yourself? Why are you asking him to be the bigger man or woman here? Step up, maybe he will follow.
' Wrote:Actually ... this guy can get destroyed for not complying with your demands. If he gives you LESS than what you demanded and agreed on ... he's toast. But if he gives you MORE than you asked ... let him go. The rules just state you gotta make a demand prior to destroying him. If he fool'd you into taking 200k vs 200mil ... hit him hard and often. This guy would get pirated every time he saw me. But the guy that was compliant would likely only get pirated once and then I'd ignore him as he passed me the next few trips.
See, this is proof you can be logical. I agree 100% with the quote here. Forward!