Except that's why I backed up my position with stat comparisons. You can discount my subjective experiences if you like, but the numbers are pretty clear.
Yeah, above average means having better attributes than the average, funnily enough. Given that the Guardian is half-way between everything, trying to say it's above average is incorrect. Yes, it is flexible, I'll certainly give you that, but that doesn't really explain the discrepancy. And I disagree there, I'd rather be flying a Wraith in almost any situation. Or a Nephthys for that matter. Come to think of it, I don't know when I'd choose a Guardian over a Nephthys or a Wraith.
' Wrote:Except that's why I backed up my position with stat comparisons. You can discount my subjective experiences if you like, but the numbers are pretty clear.
Certainly, though Mjolnir had already said that FLStat wasn't a reputable source for that. Of course, he may not be either.
Quote:I'd rather be flying a Wraith in almost any situation. Or a Nephthys for that matter. Come to think of it, I don't know when I'd choose a Guardian over a Nephthys or a Wraith.
I dunno about that. The Wraith only has one real advantage: have slightly better turning. And it's only slightly.
If you want the Neph nerfed in any case, the quickest way would be to kill Mjolnir with one.
Tweak all the ships to have the same stats. Please, do it. And then close all "Tweak ships, sell ships, buy Osiris etc" topics.
It is not a personal attack against the topic creator, don't get it wrong, but I am bored to death to see comparison topics and ship market topics that really steal the nature of RP.
People already whine about Order players not being able to be good PvP'ers (it was the case since forever) and there is no way that altering Nephy would help it.
I am not against PvP balance or anything. I simply want to see more RP oriented balance issues rather than "x is over powered, y is under powered, z has bla bla turrets" etc kinda dialogues.
Or Discovery "RP" server should remove its rp part from the name. I came here for that and after several years, I see that it is more and more away from that claim.
Again, this is not a post against the initial topic creator. I simply wanted to post my thougts and I saw this topic and got attracted to it as an ex-Order leader.
Mjolnir's comment was specifically about turn rates and such. The other things are still accurate (such as armour and plant), but I've given up trying to get my head around the base numbers that determine turn rate. The last time I remember Mjolnir talking about it, he said that the number in FLstat represented horizontal turning rather than vertical (but then, all I have to do to check this is whether the Manta appears abnormally slow or fast).
The Wraith actually turns quite a bit faster than the Guardian (of course, it's really relative depending on the measure you use), has more armour and a larger power plant, in exchange for one less gun forwards than normal. It also seems to lack one nanobot and shield battery compared to the Guardian. I'd argue about the profile as well, but I've always found the RT hard to hit, and that was since it was using the Valkyrie hitbox way back in the day. Perhaps it's my own inherant weakness in that case. Seems though, that from what I remember, the Wraith's armour value has gone down.
And that's certainly true. I've just got to know what characters he flies so I can hunt him down.
Ophidian, I'd like that too, but it doesn't fit with the current model. I actually have a theory based on how to balance based on RP, and how to make it successful. Of course, everybody gravitates towards the best gear, and the rules/systems in place have always sought to control and restrict this practice. My proposal in this area would be to introduce some economic concepts, and make money more perishable while also more easily obtainable. It can't really be properly explained in brief, as this kind of system requires all the components to fall into place simultaneously, otherwise it breaks horrendously.
In the end, there will always have to be a limit. Here, it's the rules and the nerf system particularly. In the world, you are only limited by your means. Unlike the world however, FL is virtual, and the capacity to generate money from nothing is there. You can create a perfect system because the inputs are not scarce, but not infinite either. Of course, this means abandoning a lot of things that we're all quite accustomed to, like simply pressing respawn to get back everything that just exploded.
' Wrote:The last time I remember Mjolnir talking about it, he said that the number in FLstat represented horizontal turning rather than vertical (but then, all I have to do to check this check whether the Manta appears abnormally slow or fast).
It's the other way around. FLStat numbers represent turning in vertical plane around horizontal axis (pitch on the picture below) which is not very useful for ships that have the biggest profile in horizontal plane.
Quote:Ophidian, I'd like that too, but it doesn't fit with the current model. I actually have a theory based on how to balance based on RP, and how to make it successful. Of course, everybody gravitates towards the best gear, and the rules/systems in place have always sought to control and restrict this practice. My proposal in this area would be to introduce some economic concepts, and make money more perishable while also more easily obtainable. It can't really be properly explained in brief, as this kind of system requires all the components to fall into place simultaneously, otherwise it breaks horrendously.
You are an elder player here, I simply beg you and all others to force the RP side of things to push more. A few years ago, I was attracted to the RP possibiliities of this place. Now, it is all PvP and ship models. You, me, and any other RP loving elder player should try to keep that aspect up so that this server and mod shall have a meaning to support. That is all I hope, all I wished to underline.
Fair enough. To be honest, by now I've separated my RP from the PvP aspect. That's not to say that they dont go together, they just don't happen consistently within each other. The environment is certainly reaching the point where suspended disbelief doesnt quite work for some people anymore.
I would say though, that enough structure remains for you to investigate concepts that have rarely been explored before. For example, I find the GC to be very poorly represented by everybody who's tried (including Digital Anvil), simply because they've applied western ideals and suffrage to the eastern setting where they traditionally do not comply with each other, and have then failed to explain how they work with each other. Current and past attempts at the GC have also only touched on the steriotypical feminist views, rather than investigated their underlying beliefs and assumptions.
There's also still large scope for individual roleplay that focuses on whatever aspects of humanity, or inhumanity you like. Change the rules as you see fit; if you don't like cardamine to be instantly addictive as some people claim it to be, simply ignore it and continue to write. If you like to write your own story and imagine a world free of the restrictions imposed by some dude who wrote a bit of lore, do that. Nobody can make you comply with their version of the lore if it's your story.
In that way, FL provides a lot of flexibility, that is found outside the PvP arena.
' Wrote:I could try backing it up with how ships feel to me but then that'd just be subjective and more opinion than anything.
Oh wait. That's been this entire thread.
And being above average does not mean having the best powercore, best armor, etc. It's still one of the most versatile and adaptable fighters in the mod.
As far as I remember we were talking about Avanger right?
Anyway, saying that neph is totaly ok... Hmm 3 tizona del cids, 4 nomnom cannons and a razor. With stronger armor than templar has, titan powercore and at similiar turn rate as guardian has while also having 7 guns forward.
The such ship shoots, it takes down shields in matter of a blink. With all four guns it can shoot forever because energy core doesn't deplete at all (with nom nom cannons) therefor it can simply SPAM razor (i mean it) one after another while maintining full firepower.
But if your argument is that order should fight nomads and thefore have stronger tech.. guess what noms got nerfed, means order needs to fallow it too then.
' Wrote:As far as I remember we were talking about Avanger right?
Anyway, saying that neph is totaly ok... Hmm 3 tizona del cids, 4 nomnom cannons and a razor. With stronger armor than templar has, titan powercore and at similiar turn rate as guardian has while also having 7 guns forward.
The such ship shoots, it takes down shields in matter of a blink. With all four guns it can shoot forever because energy core doesn't deplete at all (with nom nom cannons) therefor it can simply SPAM razor (i mean it) one after another while maintining full firepower.
But if your argument is that order should fight nomads and thefore have stronger tech.. guess what noms got nerfed, means order needs to fallow it too then.
P.S "we restrict ourselves" is not an argument.
By the way, putting Death's Hands on this baby is far more OP then nomad junk that is 600m/s. Infinite 750m/s spray. And if you really worry about the shield you can even put 3 debs and still keep 4 8.33s. Sure they're not Sammaels, but even on a Bastet they do wonders.
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