GB Battle Razor DMG 1: 6500 DMG 2: 3250 Range: 1500m (the default range) Speed: 1200ms (up from 600) Refire: 0.20 (down from 0.33) Energy: 350,000 (up from 115,000)
Short description: Anti-Gunboat and anti-snubcraft cannon. Good for sniping hull damage, useless versus shields. Requires tons of energy, only 1 can be used at a time.
GB Missile Turret DMG 1: 7000 (up from 1 jeez) DMG 2: 14000 (up from ~10000) Range: 1500m (the default range) Speed: 70ms (the default speed) Refire: 0.25 (down from 0.33) Energy: 350,000 (up from ~230,000)
Short description: Low Refire + Huge Drain = no missile spammers. CM's and manuevering counter them easily. Battle Razor takes good aim to hit and deals less damage, missiles have a mind of their own and generally less chance to hit, but when they hit they hit hard.
GB Pulse Cannon DMG 1: 1000 (up from 700) DMG 2: 15000 (up from 10350) Range: 1500m (the default range) Speed: 900ms (up from 600) Refire: 0.25 (down from 0.50) Energy: 150,000 (up from 70,000)
Short description: Shield damage is useful now. Refire is lowered, consumption is hightened to avoid abuse. Speed is useful now, people can actually hit something.
GB Cerberus DMG 1: 1900 (thats 5750 per sec, old was 4600 per sec) DMG 2: 950 (down from 1150) Range: 1200m (up from 990) Speed: 1000ms (up from 900) Refire: 3.03 (up from 2.0) Energy: 8000 (thats 30,300 per sec, old was 18,000 per sec)
Short description: Upped speed by 100ms for higher hit chance. Upped range for long-range combat. Upped refire, so it looks like a gunboat weapon now. To get the full damage potential, you need to aim better and dont waste shots - your power core will hate you for that.
--------------------------------------------------------- NOTE 1: Power cores for gunboats are 400,000 for light, 500,000 for medium and 600,000 for heavy gunboat. Do your math before writing your OP qq's.
--------------------------------------------------------- NOTE 2: Battleships & Cruisers have several class weapon slots, while gunboats have only 5-class slots. Now, with these changes, things are balanced out:
-you cannot use more than 1 missile effectively
-you cannot use more than 1 battle razor effectively
-you cannot use more than 2 pulse cannons effectively
-be careful with the cerberus, its good for hit & run and bad vs other gunboats for prolonged fight.
-with most gunboats having 6 turret slots, you now have the opportunity to choose between tactical weapons versus pure damage of standart turrets, making it very fun.
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Guys, please, keep the thread clean and post CONSTRUCTIVE feedback on the weapon stats. I'd like to test these new guns with the devs (or the devs might test them on their own). The point is, the guns as they are now, are USELESS. We need changes. Please, devs, have a look at those stats, test them out in real combat, invite more people to the testing and lets make the mod even better! I have lots of experience in gunboats, I want to help with the testing!
---reserving post for more description and ideas---
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Razor in your proposal is underpowered with 6k dmg, the Missile is fine if does not track well, if it tracks well is overpowered, Pulse is quite ok. Cerb is overpowered if you can use 6 and use them for snipe shot snubs.
In my humble opinion GBs need no primary guns and the rest can stay the same with 1/3 more energy usage for the Solaris and bit more range for Razors and Pulses. Pirmary and especially basics at 75% give the GBs quite nice DPS and chance to hit vs all kind of targets and are simply wrong because they have no drawbacks. I cannot see motivation to use any of the proposed guns when I have Primaries available.
If we go only with anti-snub guns- low DPS and bad DPE but great chance to hit snubs and anti cap guns- good DPS, medium DPE really slow speed (600-800) and special guns like Razors Pulses and Missiles combined with good working forward guns together with generic forward gun GBs would work quite nice and wont be able to be "Jack of all Trades". I guess factions wont be happy to lose their faction GB guns but if it counts for all it should not be a problem.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
Way too big powerdrain. Id say 250.000 for Razor, 275.000 for missle, 125.000 for pulce.
Cant say anything about Cerbs cuz Im not fan of those.
and ummm... 6500 dmg on razor? serious? its 18.650 right now. with stats you provided it must be no less then 20.000
GB Razor: You're trying to make this into a new class of weapon. Without a discernment between gunboat heavy and gunboat standard weapons (which we do not have the weapon classes for) you'll only cause agile gunboat with fewer weapons to become more popular. The old pulse/razor becomes easier to do if you need fewer turrets to do it. I'm against this idea for this reason.
GB Missile: These were set to EMP only since they are VERY hard to dodge when missile tracking actually works. This resulted in groups of gunboats ganging up on fighters, launching missiles blindly and as fast as they could do so. Your proposal would cause that undesirable behaviour to return. A gunboat missile will insta-down a fighter/bomber shield, and that is it's purpose.
GB Pulse: Strongly against speeding this weapon up as that'll make gunboats a kind of superbomber for taking on capitals, in conjunction with the battlerazor. And anticap is not their purpose. At 600m/s an agile cruiser can still evade such fire.
GB Cerberus: The changes you propose make this weapon into a shotgun. A six turret gunboat with one missile, one razor and Cerbs would be a "can defeat anything" kind of vessel. That is not the intent of this class. Gunboats are anti-snub and, to some extent, anti-medium.
Counterproposal:
Missile: Leave as is. It's fine as a guided EMP weapon. Alternative is to lower the missile's tracking abilities so that it is less agile - it's currently as agile as a cruise disruptor. If it is as agile as say, a Cannonball, then it can be a hullbuster.
Razor: Change that visual and change it's name to "Micro Mortar" to signify it's role as artillery rather then shortrange heavy damage.
Alternatively, shorten the range on the razor to 400m and then raise it's speed to 800m/s. Won't be useful in the anticapital role, but it could REALLY zap fighters in that setup.
Pulse: Leave speed and range as is. Raise EMP damage by 15%, so this weapon is a far better shieldbuster then either turrets or the razor.
Cerberus: Leave exactly as is. Lower speed turret, doing more damage. Useful for shooting down fighters and bombers in a hurry.
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I agree with AD on every point except the Pulse gun. He proposed the half of the refire combined with worse DPE and a bit more DPS, so his pulse would be like 30% weaker then the pulse now but with better chance to hit, I say it is quite nice trade off. If you does not want to be really good vs caps,just set it on 900 range together with the Razor, so the GBs must come in Cruiser/Battleships primary guns range in order to use it, it means pain for the GB pilot, also if he is not in OP GB like Asco or Bottlenose or Hessian/Rogue one. With 900 speed Razor and Pulse would be also more dangerous to snubs, both guns lost their purpose with TS/TZ introduction because are not usable with them.
I cannot see any input on dropping alltogether the primary guns,because with primaries available there is no need to change the rest of GB guns- none would use it anyway.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
AeternusDoleo, nothing has been tested and already you throw it in the trash can. I have a different opinion on this.
Quote:GB Cerberus: The changes you propose make this weapon into a shotgun. A six turret gunboat with one missile, one razor and Cerbs would be a "can defeat anything" kind of vessel. That is not the intent of this class. Gunboats are anti-snub and, to some extent, anti-medium.
You say a gunboat with 5 cerbs + 1 missile. Light gunboat has 4 seconds of fire, heavy has 6 seconds. Can you defeat another gunboat with basic turrets in PVP with that setup? No. Can you kill fighters fast enough with it? No. Weapon speed is 1000 and you won't have even 60% accuracy. It takes average skill to avoud 1000 speed turrets. You get no sustained fire from this, 2 fighters can rape you, not to mention another gunboat. AND you have to choose whether to fire "the missile" or the 5 cerbs. You aint got energy for both.
Where is the problem?
Quote:GB Missile: These were set to EMP only since they are VERY hard to dodge when missile tracking actually works. This resulted in groups of gunboats ganging up on fighters, launching missiles blindly and as fast as they could do so. Your proposal would cause that undesirable behaviour to return. A gunboat missile will insta-down a fighter/bomber shield, and that is it's purpose.
Hard to dodge when tracking works and you said it yourself. Okay, lets make the missiles easier to dodge. Something like torpedoes.
As for the gunboats ganging up on fighters - that will continue to happen as some people prefer it that way. Everyone is free to choose what they will be flying.
A short proposal: make the missiles like the Asco Torpedo. Right now if the asco torpedo gets spammed, it deshields you. It has 20,000 HP and I kill these torps in 2secs of turret fire with my own gunboat. Wanna try it in Conn? Call me up and see for yourself. If we make all missiles be like torpedoes, problem solved - you can kill yourself if you spamm them too much.
Quote:Pulse: Leave speed and range as is. Raise EMP damage by 15%, so this weapon is a far better shieldbuster then either turrets or the razor.
In a gunboat vs gunboat fight, I have killed every single person who uses an EMP turret.
And I die from missile boats, due to the screwed aim the missile provides.
So, in short - EMP missiles do the job of the Pulse Cannon AND they hit fighters as well. And Pulse Cannons suck versus cruiser shields, not to mention battleship shields. You try hit a cruiser with that 600 speed from 900 distance. Useless.
Quote:GB Razor: You're trying to make this into a new class of weapon. Without a discernment between gunboat heavy and gunboat standard weapons (which we do not have the weapon classes for) you'll only cause agile gunboat with fewer weapons to become more popular. The old pulse/razor becomes easier to do if you need fewer turrets to do it. I'm against this idea for this reason.
Yes, Im trying to make it into a new class of weapon, a USEFUL one.
Light gunboats may only have 1 of these, as it takes 350,000 energy to fire.
Heavy gunboats may have 2 and they will still have to wait before they fire the second one. If you have 2 however, a light gunboat with 5 basics and 1 missile will kill you.
Battle razors could be good for sniping hulls, but still deal less than one shot from codegun armed fighter. This means, you cannot snipe anyone if he has shields, you lack refire rate and damage for that. BUT, if 3 bombers are going at you, doing shield runs and taking turns, you can snipe off a 5750 damage of their hull while they run away. This can happen once every 30 seconds. Why? Because it does too little damage to be used on itself. And you can have only 1. Two would be inefficient. And you can fire it once every 10 seconds (battery needs that much time to recharge). And you need to aim good before you fire.
Still, it has its uses. Much like the fighter razor, this requires skill, you cannot solo any caps with it, yet you can "contribute" to their death while bombers are at them.
Ive tried to explain things, but its clear noone likes to read walls of text (me included). I invite the devs to make a test server and lets have at least 20-30 of our trusted members to test things out thoroughly.
Right now, gunboats are BORING. Turret zoom and basic turrets. Thats what we have. I want to have tactics about how to spend the power core, timings on when to launch heavy weaponry, strategies versus different types of opponents. And to learn aiming with these weapons, you will have cool moments to remember the fight with. That last shot on your target could be a nice Razor or Cerberus salvo, not just some stupid "pew-pew-pew" from basic turrets and zoom out. Cockpit aiming, please! I want it back!
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Oh, please tell me what they are doing... I wanna know, so maybe I can give up right now and not waste time on things that are already headed down the hole.
I get the feeling nothing good will come from 4.87
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Well balance team is not known with good working stuff sadly,but sometimes they have done perfect work, we would see what would happen with the GBs, discovery balance is like gambling- sometimes you hit the jackpot sometimes you loose all of your money.
I hope they wont be brutally nerfed but just balanced, as I said the easiest way is to remove the primaries and change a bit the rest- this is the only way to give GBs role in the game via specialised set-ups.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
Turrets are losing half their DPS. Cerbs a little less. As far as I've heard there's no changes to the P/Rs (meaning if you want a GB with more DPS you'll need to use P/R, and you wont be a pro "'zoomer" with turrets anymore since they wont be nearly as effective.)