You misunderstand the point of my post. It's not a complaint or a request of any sort. It's an oorp heads up between players that we're just about done with going out of our way to have a peaceful resolution with nothing but a light slap on the wrist for the OSI - along with some feedback about your diplomacy, which you can take as you will. I'm also just providing you the courtesy of letting you know that your sentiment about the extent of consequences that OSI may suffer outside of Rheinland is grossly underestimated. If you want to continue with your course of action, knowing what it entails, that's fine by me since that only adds to the available interactions of my faction.
As an aside, don't mind that I find your creative excuse to absolve your faction of bad luck and bad diplomacy and the responsibility of having an official faction, to be a cheap cop out attempt. It's purely a matter of opinion, and I can honestly say it only served to make us feel annoyed rather than appreciative of the rather unique attempt at finding a solution to come off as a victim and not a criminal. That isn't to say that your RP is any more or less legitimate than that of anyone else.
As for skyping, there isn't really much more to say beyond what's already been said. If you'd like to have a chat about what RP might evolve between us, you can give me a shout on Skype. My handle is Kai.Siegfried.
Your track record in kusari isnt exactly absolved of sins either. Take the advice of Eisen and deal with your diplomacy better or you might start seeing consequences outside of Rheinland.
If you wish to stay neutral with all the houses then some of your members need to keep their big mouth shut to the proper authorities and just wink and smile. And I have nothing against you guys OOCly but ICly even bad attitude can cause friction. Granted if that is your RP then that is your RP and you should stick with it I guess. Just beware of the consequences.
Also OSI have a 5k ID because they are supposed to supply bases and not really meant to be a Zoner ore, fuel, etc power trading faction afaik
I'm going to comment on the whole Zoner 5k in house space to begin with. Az need not justify why OSI can dock in house space with Zoner 5ks. The regular Zoner ID not being allowed to dock in house space has no role play reasoning; never did. It was (and still is) an out of role play rule designed to prevent the Zoner ID from being used as a power-trading-you-cannot-pirate-me-I-am-neutral card. It worked; all those nubs started using the Interspace ID. OSI under my leadership and then Stygian's leadership worked towards the goal of having our own ID that allowed us to function as we functioned before the rule was put in place (IE: OSI is older than the no docking in house space rule and docking in house space was a very large part of OSI's role play).
Onto the whole OSI getting caught with their pants down in Rheinland. I don't know any details nor do I need to. It happens. I haven't read the role play between OSI's current leaders and Rheinland, but if I was still around I'd make an effort to appease Rheinland; if that means paying a small fine, wonderful. Az appears to have went the creative route (IE: He is role playing! Shocking, I know. Role playing from a faction that claims to role play!).
@eisen
I'm not sure what responsibility of an official faction forces official factions to role play in a manner that makes you happy. I highly doubt they've added one that forces official factions to do exactly what others want them to do.
My advice to you is to role play. Instead of complaining and threatening ooRP action because Az decided to be creative and role play this faction to faction encounter out (as opposed to just going - yea our bad won't happen again).
@ Trail
Do remember this is a role play server. Perhaps Az's goal is to get OSI into trouble? If everyone did everything right and perfect - it be some damn boring role play.
Both of you appear to me to be threatening ooRP consequences, which I honestly hope isn't the case.
I will say that if OSI characters (not players) have big mouths in game and aren't smiling and winking/subtle bribing local law and local criminals - than something is rather awry with OSI.
I also don't like to hear that OSI seems to have devolved into a ore/fuel power trading faction. Stygian/myself never forbid it, but we did our utmost to make sure there were also a ton of in role play trading going on.
/rant Anyways, I had to drop my dime in. Still love the OSI. I hope all of you are enjoying the faction too. Cheers. (I'll see all of you in that new RSI game years from now!)
(03-27-2013, 12:11 AM)Daedric Wrote: @eisen
I'm not sure what responsibility of an official faction forces official factions to role play in a manner that makes you happy. I highly doubt they've added one that forces official factions to do exactly what others want them to do.
My advice to you is to role play. Instead of complaining and threatening ooRP action because Az decided to be creative and role play this faction to faction encounter out (as opposed to just going - yea our bad won't happen again).
I have not made any statement regarding the legitimacy of Az's roleplay - I merely heard what his motivations behind not really giving a crap about Rheinland's politics were - and I was just giving him a friendly heads up about how he may have reached his stance on the faulty presumption that there would be no tangible consequences. Since the actual consequences would be quite detrimental to the OSI, I believed it was a courtesy to inform him so that he could make a more informed decision.
In my opinion, however, the whole "lol hessians did it" was a play at attempting to dodge the consequences of what one of the most active ships in the OSI did - something that I found to be rather disappointing (not that my personal feeling has any bearing on anything). If every official faction used an excuse like that, no faction would ever be held responsible for anything. It's just feedback, nothing more, nothing less - and no-one is expected to keep to my minimum expectations, and I apologize if anyone read it to be like that.
Since you've said that you haven't read about what's been going on between Rheinland and the OSI, I'll give you a brief overview.
Earlier this year, an OSI 5k was found smuggling goods through Hamburg bound for Liberty (by its own inrp admission). It was stopped, and when ordered to drop its infringing cargo, it decided to dock on Hamburg while under fire from Rheinland Lawful ships.
As a response to that, the Rheinland Lawful leadership decided to be kind, and imposed a 100k fine with no other penalties - which is nothing compared to what would have normally happened.
Fast forward a bit. An OSI 5k is caught docking on a known Hessian station, purchasing a full load of illegally mined uncut diamonds.
Initially, OSI was fined 15 million credits (for a full load of uncut diamonds, which would fetch more than twice that amount) - the OSI CEO decided to take an abrasive attitude towards the Admiral of the RM, and basically blamed the entire thing on hessians and Rheinland Lawful incompetence. As such, the OSI was temporarily barred from Rheinland space.
OSI was re-approached with a fine of 50 million credits (still a slap on the wrist), and terms that entailed OSI ships contacting any available Rheinland Lawful ships prior to entering Rheinland space, as well as an apology to the Admiral for being quite rude - OSI CEO decided to stay the course, refused to pay the fine - saying that it couldn't be bothered "funding" the feeble Rheinland government, as that would make things look bad, and refused to apologize.
Each step of the way, Rheinland attempted to let the OSI preserve its lore based neutrality while being barely penalized - only to have the OSI CEO take a dump all over points that were debated at length by players, which rubbed them the wrong way somewhat. Time was wasted on nice gestures, so our frustration is showing. Plan B, which involves Rheinland reciprocating hostility with hostility would have been much easier to implement from the get go, and seems like an inevitability now.
Again, nothing is wrong with what the OSI did. Everything done was perfectly within Aazalot's rights to do as a player, and as someone charged with deciding the future of the OSI as a zoner offshoot faction. If that hadn't been the case, this wouldn't be a thread in the feedback subsection.
EDIT:
(03-27-2013, 12:11 AM)Daedric Wrote: Both of you appear to me to be threatening ooRP consequences, which I honestly hope isn't the case.
I will say that if OSI characters (not players) have big mouths in game and aren't smiling and winking/subtle bribing local law and local criminals - than something is rather awry with OSI.
I also don't like to hear that OSI seems to have devolved into a ore/fuel power trading faction. Stygian/myself never forbid it, but we did our utmost to make sure there were also a ton of in role play trading going on.
/rant Anyways, I had to drop my dime in. Still love the OSI. I hope all of you are enjoying the faction too. Cheers. (I'll see all of you in that new RSI game years from now!)
I'm not threatening ooRP consequences, I'm informing the OSI of the ramifications of the inRP consequences. Since said consequences would drastically change the future of OSI as a faction, we're trying to be nice while preserving our RP.
Also, XD what did you expect? A standard recruitment faction with the best 5k in the mod, with the ability to dock anywhere is bound to attract people that are in it for the money (not that that's necessarily a bad thing). You should be pleased to know though, that there are still many OSI players out there that are deliberately hauling sub-optimal cargo to keep up with RP - which is nice.
You indeed did make a statement regarding the legitimacy of Az's role play. You've stated you feel it is a cheap cope out attempt. This is role play. Role. Play.
Try to understand that what you and I would do as a person are not exactly what our characters would do. Your character and your person are seperate entities (or should be). Az's out of role play motivation for not caring as a player because OSI doesn't frequent Rheinland can play into Az's role play - it makes having a rough relationship with another faction/group of factions easier to swallow.
I'd quite like you to explain how being barred from Rheinland and hunted by their lawfuls would be detrimental to OSI. Under my leadership and that of Sigcorps OSI was barred from Kusari and hunted. Didn't phase the faction as a whole. Yes, some of us had to be more sneaky due to the mistakes of others. I wasn't mad at the guy who made the mistake; his mistake meant my trade routes were more exciting because I had to be sneaky and the thrill of out running the Kusari Naval Forces and Police.
I'm not sure how an OSI ship supplying a Hessian base is disappointing. OSI are a bunch of Zoners. Zoners supply people in the Border Worlds and in the Edge. That is how they survive out there. You claim an excuse is being used. There is no excuse, nor a need for one. There is no problem out of role play. There is a problem in role play and Az responded with an in role play gesture.
Regarding the OSI ship that docked with Hamburg while pinned down by a RM/RFP? I cannot help there - if I was active and leading - the player would have been warned or kicked for such an action. My opinion is that the Rheinland lawful leadership should have filed a sanction report for ooRP play and I'd have fined OSI more. 100k to OSI is nothing and in role play would lead OSI to believe they can get away with murder in Rheinland.
Again, remember that Az may be role playing his CEO in a more aggressive/hostile to house manner than previous OSI leaders. This is not bad role play; it is role play. Does it chance damaging OSI in the long run? Perhaps. As I said though - would the role play have sparked as much activity had OSI merely paid the 15m and went about its business? I doubt it. Az's choice to role play his character in such a manner to irk the government's ire produced far more chance for many people to interact. I'd say that is a plus for all invovled (even if OSI may suffer from it).
Again - you say this line of role play with have drastic consequences for OSI. I don't think you fully understand how long OSI has been around nor the scope of role play on the server. OSI has weathered far worse than a petty fine with Rheinland (infact OSI's made Rheinland mad before and look how you're treating them? 100k fine and an initial 15m fine).
Anyways, I'm happy to hear OSI hasn't become a full on power trading faction and that they are creating role play (even if it chances causing harm to their own play).
My personal opinion of Az's "hessians did it" rp being a cheap cop out does not mean that it is illegitimate. It's merely an opinion. As I have said before, everything he did was within his rights.
I mentioned that the consequences of OSI being hostile to Rheinland is potentially detrimental to the OSI. This is because, recently, OSI has been a trade-everywhere faction. An elimination of an entire house of lawful bases for docking rights, as well as being potentially pursued outside of Rheinland space is definitely a large change that I believe warrants the consideration of all parties involved before proceeding, again, a second chance offered as a courtesy.
The act of trading with the Hessians in itself isn't disappointing. If it's profitable, it's viable. What was disappointing was how the OSI handled being called out for it - as I've explained before. Mind you, we're handling this situation in with the lessons from the IC in mind. As such, we've provided plenty of opportunities for OSI to maintain the status quo, before this whole issue, so as to avoid the whole Q.Q when it hits the fan - again, as a courtesy.
I didn't mean for this to become a discussion, only a notification to clear up any misunderstandings between the Rheinland lawful players and the OSI players before the status quo is disrupted for better or worse. I suppose I presumed too much in expecting that the gesture would be appreciated.
Everything relevant regarding the OSI-Rheinland incident has been said. What can be expected from our side has been shown so as to allow for an informed decision on the OSI's part. From here, we'll stopping the handholding phase, and let what will happen, happen - I hope it'll be fun for everyone involved.
Also, I can see your point with regards to the small fine of 100k on the OSI ship previously mentioned. I was ooc told that the player was new to the faction, and it seemed to be rash to hold an entire faction responsible for the actions of a new player - but your interpretation also makes sense.
(03-27-2013, 03:04 AM)EisenSeele Wrote: My personal opinion of Az's "hessians did it" rp being a cheap cop out does not mean that it is illegitimate. It's merely an opinion. As I have said before, everything he did was within his rights.
I mentioned that the consequences of OSI being hostile to Rheinland is potentially detrimental to the OSI. This is because, recently, OSI has been a trade-everywhere faction. An elimination of an entire house of lawful bases for docking rights, as well as being potentially pursued outside of Rheinland space is definitely a large change that I believe warrants the consideration of all parties involved before proceeding, again, a second chance offered as a courtesy.
The act of trading with the Hessians in itself isn't disappointing. If it's profitable, it's viable. What was disappointing was how the OSI handled being called out for it - as I've explained before. Mind you, we're handling this situation in with the lessons from the IC in mind. As such, we've provided plenty of opportunities for OSI to maintain the status quo, before this whole issue, so as to avoid the whole Q.Q when it hits the fan - again, as a courtesy.
I didn't mean for this to become a discussion, only a notification to clear up any misunderstandings between the Rheinland lawful players and the OSI players before the status quo is disrupted for better or worse. I suppose I presumed too much in expecting that the gesture would be appreciated.
Everything relevant regarding the OSI-Rheinland incident has been said. What can be expected from our side has been shown so as to allow for an informed decision on the OSI's part. From here, we'll stopping the handholding phase, and let what will happen, happen - I hope it'll be fun for everyone involved.
Also, I can see your point with regards to the small fine of 100k on the OSI ship previously mentioned. I was ooc told that the player was new to the faction, and it seemed to be rash to hold an entire faction responsible for the actions of a new player - but your interpretation also makes sense.
This is a feedback thread - you're giving your opinion on Az's role play. You say it is crap because you don't like it. Thus, in your eyes he is doing it wrong; when in fact he isn't doing it wrong. His character might (and I can't stress that enough) be making mistakes, but Az isn't if he is intending his character to be bull headed.
OSI has always been a trade-everywhere faction and it has weathered the elimination of Kusari, Gallia, and Rheinland from its trade routes multiple times in the past. OSI has been hunted by a large number of factions over the course of its life. Considering the main goal of OSI is to supply Nichols, other Zoner bases, and supply groups in the Border and Edge worlds losing access to Rheinland isn't a large issue for OSI - is it an issue? For sure, but not nearly as large a change as you seem to think.
What you are saying is that OSI didn't handle being called out how you wanted them to handle it. In less words - they didn't role play how you wanted them to role play. Again, had they role played the way you wanted them to and said 'We R sorry, here is the 15m. Please don't shoot us.' and been done with it - there would have been far less chance for role play and interaction between a number of factions. Why is that better than the route they've taken? You have to interact with them?
A warning would have been a warning. You didn't intend your first post be be merely a warning, because you critizied (as feedback threads are for) their role play. If you wanted it to be a mere warning, dropping a line saying that 'due to the current role play between both factions OSI might find itself hunted by Rheinland' would have been a warning.
Regarding the 100k fine for the new guy - I can't count the number of times that Stygian or myself cleaned up or paid a fine for a new player. That is what the leaders of a faction are there for; to help new guys along, teach them the ropes, lead them, and if required cover their butts when they do make mistakes.
Anyways, just role play it out. Even if Az isn't handeling the interaction right (which I think he is working it perfectly fine) - his actions (and Rheinland reaction) have generated chances for members of both groups to interact. That is a win-win for both groups - even if it means some OSI ladies/gents lose some cargo along the way. Heck, the security wing might have something to shoot!
Note: Funny, as I typed this post I recall a time when I would have said/acted just as you are in regards to this situation. I guess over time playing on Disco and leading a faction you learn what I'm trying to preach here. Guess I can thank all the peeps I played with here for teaching me that even if I refused to listen at times. Oh, and this whole discussion might give me a reason to reload Disco and have some fun with you guys again. Thanks.
(03-29-2013, 04:55 PM)Daedric Wrote: This is a feedback thread - you're giving your opinion on Az's role play. You say it is crap because you don't like it. Thus, in your eyes he is doing it wrong; when in fact he isn't doing it wrong. His character might (and I can't stress that enough) be making mistakes, but Az isn't if he is intending his character to be bull headed.
OSI has always been a trade-everywhere faction and it has weathered the elimination of Kusari, Gallia, and Rheinland from its trade routes multiple times in the past. OSI has been hunted by a large number of factions over the course of its life. Considering the main goal of OSI is to supply Nichols, other Zoner bases, and supply groups in the Border and Edge worlds losing access to Rheinland isn't a large issue for OSI - is it an issue? For sure, but not nearly as large a change as you seem to think.
What you are saying is that OSI didn't handle being called out how you wanted them to handle it. In less words - they didn't role play how you wanted them to role play. Again, had they role played the way you wanted them to and said 'We R sorry, here is the 15m. Please don't shoot us.' and been done with it - there would have been far less chance for role play and interaction between a number of factions. Why is that better than the route they've taken? You have to interact with them?
A warning would have been a warning. You didn't intend your first post be be merely a warning, because you critizied (as feedback threads are for) their role play. If you wanted it to be a mere warning, dropping a line saying that 'due to the current role play between both factions OSI might find itself hunted by Rheinland' would have been a warning.
Regarding the 100k fine for the new guy - I can't count the number of times that Stygian or myself cleaned up or paid a fine for a new player. That is what the leaders of a faction are there for; to help new guys along, teach them the ropes, lead them, and if required cover their butts when they do make mistakes.
Anyways, just role play it out. Even if Az isn't handeling the interaction right (which I think he is working it perfectly fine) - his actions (and Rheinland reaction) have generated chances for members of both groups to interact. That is a win-win for both groups - even if it means some OSI ladies/gents lose some cargo along the way. Heck, the security wing might have something to shoot!
Note: Funny, as I typed this post I recall a time when I would have said/acted just as you are in regards to this situation. I guess over time playing on Disco and leading a faction you learn what I'm trying to preach here. Guess I can thank all the peeps I played with here for teaching me that even if I refused to listen at times. Oh, and this whole discussion might give me a reason to reload Disco and have some fun with you guys again. Thanks.
I don't hate Az. I nothing Az. We've had no personal interactions, so I have made no judgement on him as a person. I have only his reaction to the events that have occurred - I've stated that it was merely my opinion that his attempts at dodging consequences was a cop out (a personal opinion, not a glaring indictment or a threat for shankshuning or a promise to feed him his own dog in chili), actually, come to think of it, he both inrp and oorp blamed us for what a gang of RNC indies did to one of those POB freeports - which isn't very cool, especially given that he's of the disposition that OSI is being wrongfully persecuted for what one tagged OSI ship did. I guess I kind of do have a lesser opinion of him now, though not really.
Also, as I've said before, my first post was a warning. It may have been long winded due to the inclusion of an explanation.
I have asked around, and it would seem the OSI was given its own ID so that it could develop its own diplomacy and diverge from standard Zoner RP - I suppose this is a great opportunity for the OSI to exercise that privilege, and diverge from the neutral-everywhere-5k-transporting-massive-profit-ores-from-Goldern-and-Diamant-etc faction that it has sort of become (not that there's anything wrong with that).
It would be interesting to see a faction that will be held accountable for its economic hostilities with diplomatic consequences in a dynamic fashion, since normal house shipping corporations have had all that figured out for them before hand.
Also, we are roleplaying it out - something which may or may not alter the roleplay of the OSI, which is why the warning was issued in the first place (XD again, as a courtesy)
That being said - I'll look forward to seeing you in space it's always good to hear a veteran player is returning
Ganna jump in here with a few things, As Styggy has mentioned, the way i handled things IN rp is how my character would do it, hes not the sort of person to apologise, nor back down from things, not the best traits of a CEO but Voncloud isnt your typical CEO. Now, alot of people seem to think i flat out refused to pay the fine, which if you read the posts, i didnt, i said it would be paid under protest, give me details please. Basically, yes, ill pay the fine, but i dont have to be happy about it, however instead of giving me said details, i get an inrp Tantrum instead. Taking the OOC element in leader chat out of the equation, this to me seems like, as Styggy put, i wasnt Rping how i was expected to, and so toys were thrown out of the pram. Everything i did was Rped how my character, an old, EX Mercenary with no real cooperate background would handle the situation, the replies i got from the initial post with the Admiral, IMO were worse. The story of hessiens did it, yes it was a bluff, an attempt at trying to get away with it, you rumbled it from the get go, hence the reason i said id pay the fine under protest, more because im not about to say "hessiens did it" get found out and then go "yeah your right, i was lieing, trying to pull the wool over your eyes, here have 15 mill mate, sorry about that" no, its not how it works, instead i would pay the fine keeping the persona of a CEO with a traumatised crew. Instead of accepting my fine, we get basically a temper fuelled Banning because of "how i spoke to him" Seriously if that happened in Real life, we would have alot more wars.
The deals giving to us by pavel, again was all RP and even discussed between myself and the directors, from a company stand point, again probably very unexpected and not the usual bending over you people seem to expect, fact is, if i can help it i dont do boring, mundane or unoriginal things, fact is my choices here have given OSI more interactions with other factions both lawful and unlawful, and everything i have done has all been INRP, not something i can say about the Rheinland side now is it.
Id also like to point out something thats shown itself is that people seem to think that OSI isnt a Zoner faction, and has nothing to do with Zoners, sorry but your wrong, in every step possible. OSI was started by Zoners, for Zoners, to supply Zoners and take Zoner wares to house space, if you care to even READ the OSI ID it states, RATHER CLEARLY
Pilot carrying this ID is a Zoner who:
Can attack lawful and unlawful targets in self-defense, to protect another trader, or in defense of Zoner bases.
Notice the IS A ZONER part?
If people even cared to read the OSI history there is lots there telling you that OSI, IS a Zoner faction.
Now i understand why people seem to think otherwise since OSI does seem to be nothing more then a power trading faction who do nothing really Zonery at all, something that will be changing whilst i am CEO of it. But until its stated otherwise or we state otherwise OSI is a Zoner faction, wether you like it or not.
I was the annoying KPT that once attacked you. Blew up 2 of your ships and forced another one to dock
some notes of criticism
1. It isnt inRP at all for an OSI ship to combat dock onto a Kishiro Space Station from a KPT officer that could obviously refuse you docking rights with the click of a button and then have you arrested should you somehow dock into the space station anyway.
Try to avoid to dock onto lawful stations
2. Not very inRP for you to pass me with the materials I blew you up for several minutes ago.
I know it isnt against server rules to do so but it is quite annnoying and lolwutty to see it happen. I guess it comes down to a matter of opinion but it would be nice to not see that happen as it sorta invalidates the RP reasoning of my character. (and something that might stop other players from trying to attempt a long winded RP)
3. From what im told I caused quite a stir on skype being branded a lolwut and having 2 people submit sanction reports (and up to this day I havent been sanctioned for that) for how mad and un-KPT they found my RP.
THis might just come down to ignorance of the KPT RP but the KPT as it stands is Kusari Secret police compareable to having both an FBI and CIA role (once a KPT cell attacked a Samura transport at new york under the auspicies of giving away house secrets) and the KPT is currently in a very KGB like state in terms of individually operating cells. Some loyal to the emperor, some loyal to the republic, some being double agents etc etc. And lets not forget that Kusari is full of xenophobes and generally not only that but also people who hate zoners. Not only that but inRP there are a few political partys who have an anti zoner agenda.
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![[Image: 50px-OSILogo.png]](http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/dannflyheit/Faction%20Icons/50px-OSILogo.png)
it's always good to hear a veteran player is returning
![[Image: hiring1.png]](https://i.postimg.cc/13JkWvmG/hiring1.png)