Capital Ships and the Future of Discovery RP 24/7

[Lythrilux]

This is nothing new what I'm talking about, but I am just reiterating the problem with Capital Ships and their usage on Disco and in the hope we can spark meaningful discussion that will actually get attention from the Devs.

Pretty much, Capital ships are a problem in this game. Why?
-Source of lolwuttery
-Source of lolwuttery
-Source of lolwuttery

A lot of people wouldn't mind some sort of organization/restriction being applied to the usage of these ships, but the problem is, Capital ships are a double-edged sword:
They're a cancer of Disco, yet they're evidently one of the reasons why we have some (or any) activity at all.
Looking at the players in game, excluding the transports, I'd say that there's more people using capital ships than snubcraft.
And you see, the problem with this is that most people flying these ships aren't what you'd call 'Mentally' capable of flying such things. I'd say for every 9 caps I see, I actually bump into one who knows what he's doing. It's like giving a toddler a high powered sniper rifle.
There's loads of examples of why unrestricted usage of capitals is a bad thing, you need to look no further than the LNS, possibly the RNC (though idk what they're like beyond sieging Liberty, but I've heard it's gank gank gank), [HW], [SSL] and the most recent events in O-74.
Now, lets take away their capitals, how damaging are they to the general gameplay and roleplay now?
-LNS Wouldn't be, well, LNSing by sticking their fat ship noses into everything
-RNC... Well, like I said I'm not too sure. However, it could be that we get a lot more decent snub vs snub sieges, instead of "lol, cap cap cap".
-[SSL]/[HW] No more freaking silent engagers insta-killing all the inhouse players.
-ZA. Oh lordy. I don't even have to type why it'd be so much better if they didn't have caps.
I guess you could call this a bias comment, but from what I've seen the usual sanctionees are the cap pilots, with great power comes great responsibility. They're not responsible.
I think I've made my point about capitals here, so the next thing I have to say; What can we do to solve this?

Really, admins should be sorting out all these sanctions and keeping things under control. Before I rant, I must say that you've done a good job. However, I find it odd that we as players almost have to do the work for you with submitting sanction reports and I find that problematic as people aren't bothered enough to submit them. Perhaps admins should police the server more often? Idk.
In my opinion, this is a problem that the devs can solve.
From the ZA drama, we've had some good suggestions like making caps SRP'd.
Perhaps we can incorporate this across Sirius? The tagging of Navy caps with LNS is a good idea, but it's unorganised. I suggest that to own a Navy cap, you MUST get tagged. Or you can only dock on a certain base where you can buy the cap if you have the tag. With some sort of an organised structure, those caps who step out of line get punished by, perhaps, the [LN].
Speaking of official factions, another problem with capitals is that they prevent people from joining said factions.
Why should I join [LN] if I want to fly capital ships? I'd have to climb up the ranking structure in order to fly them.
Imagine if [HW] was in [RHA], the activity boost would be welcome and I'm sure they'd be put in line.
In conclusion, indies have way to much freedom. Capitals should be awarded and controlled, not freely resting on every simplistic station in house space.

I've probably missed some points etc. but I don't have a lot of time on my hands to make a full post. So in summary:

Problems:
-Caps generate lolwuttery
-Indies have too much freedom with caps, they can do whatever they want
-Indies who have the mentality of "I'm going to get the biggest ship in the game" have no real reason to join official factions.
-Basically, some indies trade flying a large ship over decent roleplaying.

Solutions:
-Make caps SRP'd. People can't go and buy them freely, they have to request them via the official faction. So basically, they have to learn to play the game properly or gtfo.

Problem with the solution:
-Indies basically give the middle finger and leave because they can't get their cap. Server activity decreases, Disco is doomed.

I have nothing else to say, I think. I probably do but can't really think properly right now.
>Discuss.

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[kikatsu]

Capital ships once were on a system that basically made it so that you must have faction permission to fly one, otherwise everyone would be after you. That system was ultimately dropped and switched to needing a guard ID to fly one. Guard IDs were removed and everything was compressed into one ID. Things have been being streamlined over time and allowed easier access for players in general, allowing people to get into the mod more easily and have fun without pushing through the paperwork. Generally it is true that a handful of people ruin the fun for everyone else...

The only real problem I see with capital ships is that they force people to pay attention to you, if you are a hostile cap, 2 or 3 fighters are not going to do anything about you. 3 Bombers are barely going to take out a dreadnaught. People need to gang up on the capital ship to take it out and it will match anything of similar size in terms of power output. But if capital ships were vulnerable to fighters that would mess up the balance really badly.... but on the other end of that capital ships can load up on antifighter weapons and ruin fights. Maybe all the capital ship solaris guns should be like solaris gattling to minimize this. I do not know. I have only had a ship as big as a cruiser, nothing bigger. Eventually I would like to get a battleship, but I have confidence in my ability to RP with one after being here so long... I like the idea I can get it without beating my way through paperwork, but that does not mean I will not write RP stuff about it or with it.

[rainth345]

I think the problem here isn't the caps... but the people flying the caps...

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[dirmaster0]

I think the problem here isn't the caps... but the people flying the caps...

I agree completely!

[Thyrzul]

Capital ships once were on a system that basically made it so that you must have faction permission to fly one, otherwise everyone would be after you. That system was ultimately dropped and switched to needing a guard ID to fly one. Guard IDs were removed and everything was compressed into one ID. Things have been being streamlined over time and allowed easier access for players in general, allowing people to get into the mod more easily and have fun without pushing through the paperwork. Generally it is true that a handful of people ruin the fun for everyone else...

The issue with this tendency is that in the end there will be nothing to make people keep this server what it initially intended to be. A roleplay server. Discovery RP 24/7, lol, the name is a joke already.

The only real problem I see with capital ships is that they force people to pay attention to you, if you are a hostile cap, 2 or 3 fighters are not going to do anything about you. 3 Bombers are barely going to take out a dreadnaught. People need to gang up on the capital ship to take it out and it will match anything of similar size in terms of power output. But if capital ships were vulnerable to fighters that would mess up the balance really badly.... but on the other end of that capital ships can load up on antifighter weapons and ruin fights. Maybe all the capital ship solaris guns should be like solaris gattling to minimize this. I do not know. I have only had a ship as big as a cruiser, nothing bigger. Eventually I would like to get a battleship, but I have confidence in my ability to RP with one after being here so long... I like the idea I can get it without beating my way through paperwork, but that does not mean I will not write RP stuff about it or with it.

The only real problem I see with capital ships is exactly what Lythrilux pointed out already, that a lot of the cap commanders tend to use them without any responsibility, and that can result in said actions you mentioned: "capital ships can load up on antifighter weapons and ruin fights".

And what is the difference between "writing RP stuff about it" and doing the same in a specific place (paperwork place)?

I generally agree with everything Lythrilux pointed out and currently I can not add anything to it. Been voicing the same stuff at various points of the forums lately. Make caps Faction/SRP Only, and with that ensure that quality personnel can acquire those caps.

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[Jinx]

@OP

you are fixated at indies.

- a great majority of indies ( which is actually a great majority of the sever population ) have never done - and would never do anything bad. - some of them fly snubs, some of them caps. but it may show that their choice of ship does not affect their negative impact on the server.

so - do not paint all indies as "the bad ones". you only create a very unhealthy "us" vs. "them" attitude.


in general


most trouble, trolling and general dismay was caused - and still is caused by official factions - or established unofficial ones. - some have alt chars that are untagged to do their factions dirty work. - which is not only a cowardly move but also rather despicable.

furthermore - snubs cause as much - if not more problems to the gameplay - which is no surprise - cause there are more snubs.

players suffer from "selected perception" though. you really just see what you expect to see - and you fail to see whats right in front of you, if it does not match your expectations.



what i read in the past days:

- SRP caps
- SRP PoBs

whats next?

some smallish faction trying to SRP transports over 3000, cause they cannot fly them anyway - and at least they can get back at those nasty big corporations that totally abuse the big ships and make way more money?

tell you what ... - asking for nerfs / limitations havea habit to go around and catch up with those who want them included.

also - if you travel the omicrons or edgeworlds - it would be highly ooRP to see ppl flying around the systems in fighters. - it is in fact inRP to see ppl to fly around in at least destroyer sized vessels, cause ...

remember : traversing a system takes weeks if not months inRP - and you really don t wanne sleep where you fly, where you eat, where you crap.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[Hannibal]

Problem with the solution:
-Indies basically give the middle finger and leave because they can't get their cap. Server activity decreases, Disco is doomed.

don't forget bombers pilots will also no longer need that ship,if bombers disappear as well then why have fighters?..we all will be flying in transports and fight each other in them and even pirate or be a police officers..because what will be the point of having other ship?
[if you pirate in transport you'll ger cargo and have no enemies..if you are police in a transport ,you kill the pirate,get the cargo and sell it]

yup..it is very hard to achieve balance..

Anyway..

I don't think the problem is the ability to buy one if you want and shouldn't be restricted in any form ,but rather where to use
You have given a very good example of how not to use,aka LNS :
But the real problem is where and when to use it
As a navy officer you should not use a capital ship inside the house space[only at border worlds/systems or on the enemy house space] and you should not hunt in any form unlawful in your house space,that should only be dealt by police[right now it's pointless to fly a police id-ed ships because you get a better deal without it,aka no ships class limitation,twice the zone of influence(2 houses) then a police id]
So..as a navy pilot you should only look for foreign enemy threat in your own house or in the enemie house

I 'll end here..someone was faster in typing..this isn't the post #3 as it should but #7
Totally agree with Jinx..indies are not the problem..but the official or unofficial are..i'll even go even further and say [ANGELS] as well..already got from two of them "pirating with Pirate ID is not RP at all,but killing navy is/terrorist",more or less this words..

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People want to believe that God has a plan for them.
They don't wanna believe that anyone else does..

[zalsrevenge]

I usually only fly caps, but I usually only do missions and go around doing reconnaissance missions. I'm a loner zoner.

I fly them so I can do cap ship missions and so that I cannot be easily pirated.

My mentality when I started wasn't really, "I'm going to get the biggest ship in the game". It was, "wow trading is really boring, I wonder if I can make more money doing cap ship missions." Sure enough, it's true. I can easily make 60-80mil/hr doing cap ship missions.

I don't want to join factions for a couple reasons. I don't like drama and I generally like playing alone. I'm a loner in life, so I'm a loner in games.

[Lythrilux]

@OP

you are fixated at indies.

- a great majority of indies ( which is actually a great majority of the sever population ) have never done - and would never do anything bad. - some of them fly snubs, some of them caps. but it may show that their choice of ship does not affect their negative impact on the server.

so - do not paint all indies as "the bad ones". you only create a very unhealthy "us" vs. "them" attitude.

I take that point in completely, but you've missed that I was implying indie cap pilots. So your point about non-cap ships is irrelevant I'm afraid.

furthermore - snubs cause as much - if not more problems to the gameplay - which is no surprise - cause there are more snubs.

players suffer from "selected perception" though. you really just see what you expect to see - and you fail to see whats right in front of you, if it does not match your expectations.

Ok, let's use an example:
My cruiser is parked next to the NY gate in the California system. LNS-Justice, a Liberty Navy Assault BattleCruiser, jumps out the gate. He opens fire on me without saying a word.
I die, due to the silent engaging taking me completely by suprise.
The LABC is a crimminal in this case because it's a powerful ship in the hands of a fool who does not know what he is doing. Due to the lack of RP my cruiser kicks the bucket.

Now then, for this example:
My cruiser is parked next to the NY gate in the California system. LNS-Dusk, a Liberty Navy Guardian, jumps out the gate. He opens fire on me without saying a word.
I just simply laugh because a VHF is trying to solo my cruiser.

As you can see, because the LABC is more powerful it's much more of a threat.

some smallish faction trying to SRP transports over 3000, cause they cannot fly them anyway - and at least they can get back at those nasty big corporations that totally abuse the big ships and make way more money?

That's irrelevant because it's completely out of context.

also - if you travel the omicrons or edgeworlds - it would be highly ooRP to see ppl flying around the systems in fighters. - it is in fact inRP to see ppl to fly around in at least destroyer sized vessels, cause ...

remember : traversing a system takes weeks if not months inRP - and you really don t wanne sleep where you fly, where you eat, where you crap.

Ok, you got me there. That's realistic inRP. However, you could use a freighter for that. I do see your point though, but we could still make those ships SRP'd.

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[Oorn]

I think the problem here isn't the caps... but the people flying the caps...

THIS logic is one of the main reasons why RP in server name matters as little as it does now.
Let me take this logic a little further.

Imagine "RP before shooting" rule was removed (or is it being now? Xeno much?)
"I think problem is not rules... but the people who shoot everuthing they see"
Or hypothetical EVE style.
"I think problem wasnt CONCORD removal from high-sec, but all those people who decided to gank every new player."
Or hypothetical Real Life if you like
"I think problem is not that underages can carry deadly firearms..."
THIS is what such logic leads to.

Or perhaps you meant that ADMINS should punish lolwuts? Sorry to dissapoint you, but this isnt happening in any near future.

EDIT:

most trouble, trolling and general dismay was caused - and still is caused by official factions - or established unofficial ones. - some have alt chars that are untagged to do their factions dirty work. - which is not only a cowardly move but also rather despicable.

Unrelated question: how were they "punished"?

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When "roleplay" around you seems to be diminishing... all you can do is be a new beacon of roleplay to light up everyone else's interactions.