Question about Liberty Navy rights

[Michael Trenton]

Hey Rambo,

Just thought this thread could use an objective view to you situation. In my opinion of what was laid out, Morse acted/communicated within his character's RP. The reasons behind his RP may be unclear (i.e. Hacker was a long-lost friend, informant, w/e), but if he didn't use FR5 as leverage, or something similar to that, then you (the player) shouldn't feel literally threatened. Other actions Morse could have done within his RP ranges from destroying your ship, helping the Hacker pirate, giving the hacker some ale, etc. As long as he (the character) is prepared of the potential consequences of his actions, he can do pretty much whatever he wants. Of course, unless he breaks a rule like 1.2. I hope that makes sense - it's a lil' late where I'm at. I guess one of the points I wanted to say was that it doesn't look like he was abusing any power. Just as much as he has the right to act within his character's RP, you have them as well. And just for "what if," if the LN would have FR5'd your character for not following the guy's orders. You could do some serious Public Relations damage with that kind of story (in RP of course).

As far as how much power an official faction has over the indies, it's all here:

4.7 Official player factions have authority over players of the same NPC affiliation, as long as RP justification is provided. This authority applies in forums and in-game, and applies to player faction diplomacy, and strategic and tactical direction. However, exercise of that authority, on the forums and in game, is restricted to official faction members with the rank of the official faction leader and one rank below him/her. The authority may be exercised through the use of in-game in-RP orders, which, if not obeyed, can result in in-game in-RP consequences (arrest, court martial, and even "lethal" force in extreme circumstances). Official player factions cannot, under any cicrumstances, require another player to follow non-canon RP if that player doesn't want to.

To summarize, only the first and second in command of the official faction can actually give an independent in-RP orders.

Although, let me give you my perspective from the view of another official faction (USI). I typically see the independent Universal vessels as independent contractors for the official faction, [*USI*]. So, in a way I do see USI as the real Universal faction. However, none of our employees would claim authority over them since they aren't technically employed by us. Although, lets say a Universal Independent snub was shooting a Xeno outside of Trenton Outpost. To clarify, Xenos and USI are pretty much allied, but that democracy does not carry over to the Universal Independents. Anyways, so if we saw an indy of Universal doing this, we would certainly step in and try to break up the fight. We would have to do it in a way where it doesn't give away our secret relationship with the Xenos, and that may involve telling the independent to stand down (in so many words). Of course, the independent doesn't have to listen to us and we could fail our attempt on breaking up their fight.

- Think more about the RP of characters and their consequences, then the RP of a character and the possible rule violations. Almost anything can be justified with RP. Character reactions and in-RP consequences are included.

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Founder and Executive Consultant of
Universal Shipping Incorporated

[Agmen of Eladesor]

I'm throwing this out as a third party that only has an unofficial navy character.

What you're having issues with, from the way it sounds here, is with the actual naval ranking system.

In role play, and the way it's set up here, the [LN] as the official faction is considered 'the navy' and every other officer that's not part of the 'the navy' is considered to be part of the 'navy reserve'. This is in simulation of real life, where active duty officers, even if they're a lower rank, hold command over reserve officers.

This is all in RP, and has nothing to do with the server rules, where the faction leader or the 2iC can issue commands.

Do you see the difference here? Under his role play as an active duty naval officer, Morse was issuing you a command since you're a reserve officer.

While under the Laws of Liberty, merely possessing a pirate ID makes you a criminal, that doesn't mean that just because you as a naval officer happen to SEE a pirate, you should automatically just try to kill him. That's not your primary job, and that's what it sounds like was happening here. Your primary job as a naval officer is the defense of Liberty from the attacks by Rheinland and Gallia - and just because you happen across a two-bit pirate - just call in an LPI or a bounty hunter, or tell the pirate to go away and disappear makes more sense than getting involved yourself.

In other words, YOU weren't role-playing like you're a member of a military organization, and he was. In a real military, he WOULD have authority over you and COULD issue orders that you have to follow.

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[hell.khan]

Greetings Pilot John rambo,
1st of all, reporting this incidence in the forum was waste of time,
secondly, apart from the Primary/Secondary fleet confusion, we all have to follow the rules of the server, which are apparently above even the highest [LN] commander.
and it says - keep liberty clear of pirates.
In my own point of view, as per RP, the [LN] pilot in question, could have been a "SPY" for the pirates or specifically the Lane Hackers.
Enjoy Discovery.

also note as a personal experience, a yr ago, I blew up a nomad cruiser in the vicinity of Newyork, I was too asked to stand down, by some [LN] pilots, who said that the Nomad cruiser is there as per, then Admiral of [LN] (Forgot his name). I didnt listened to them, I blew the darn thing up.

Have fun!

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http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj56...mylogo.jpg

[Mephistoles]

Randomer in an "official faction" tells my indie what to do?

Yeah, I'll decide for myself. If I think you're right, ok. If you're one of those idiots who stands around watching and contributing nothing, hanope.

In OP's example, I'd shoot the damn Hacker if I so pleased and the fool who is ok with a Lane Hacker outside the capital planet of Liberty can go faux-RP in his Navy Skype room.

for all.

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Sigma & GMG Discord Chat: https://discord.gg/d4j3W4v

[Bubba Smith]

A player that chooses a char that harasses traders should not do so much crying. Now you know how it feels. Just play the game.

[JohnRambo]

Just thought this thread could use an objective view to you situation.

Although, let me give you my perspective from the view of another official faction (USI). I typically see the independent Universal vessels as independent contractors for the official faction, [*USI*]. So, in a way I do see USI as the real Universal faction.

Let everyone decide by themselves if your view is really objective then, given that you're somone from an official faction explaining that they are the REAL faction and indy players arent. I have my doubts that you are really being objective because of the following:

Other actions Morse could have done within his RP ranges from destroying your ship, helping the Hacker pirate, giving the hacker some ale, etc. As long as he (the character) is prepared of the potential consequences of his actions, he can do pretty much whatever he wants. Of course, unless he breaks a rule like 1.2.

What you are describing as his legit RP actions are straight out rule violations. You have to act within the limits of your ID. You are saying he could have attacked an indy navy although the indy navy didnt go against navy RP. You are saying he could have helped the hacker against me. That's allying with pirates against lawfuls. Straight out rule violation for LN.

Lets test your objectivity.

Could I, or other indy navy, have helped a pirate against the official [LN], because me and the pirate get along?

Not before hell froze over.

In my opinion of what was laid out, Morse acted/communicated within his character's RP. The reasons behind his RP may be unclear (i.e. Hacker was a long-lost friend, informant, w/e), but if he didn't use FR5 as leverage, or something similar to that, then you (the player) shouldn't feel literally threatened.

If the hacker was a lost friend or informer, he could and should have told the hacker to keep a low profile, to not attack me (because the hacker started the engagement, I did not), and he could have given me a propper justification why I shouldnt attack. He did none of that, but instead told the other present navy ships to let the hacker kill me.

I hope that makes sense - it's a lil' late where I'm at. I guess one of the points I wanted to say was that it doesn't look like he was abusing any power. Just as much as he has the right to act within his character's RP, you have them as well.

No, it doesnt make sense, and I think you should have either thought more about it before posting here or simply have let the question that I asked to the admins be answered by the admins.

And just for "what if," if the LN would have FR5'd your character for not following the guy's orders. You could do some serious Public Relations damage with that kind of story (in RP of course).

First of all, no I could have done absolutly nothing if they had fr5ed me, because once you're FR5ed no one will listen anymore. I've seen how these things work around here. Furthermore I'm absolutely not interested in going into conflict with the official faction, IRP or OORP. What I want is that there is no conflict between indies and officials, but the [LN] is making it downright impossible with their way of "RP" and attitude towards indies.

- Think more about the RP of characters and their consequences, then the RP of a character and the possible rule violations. Almost anything can be justified with RP. Character reactions and in-RP consequences are included.

Thank you for attempt of giving me advice, but considering you started out telling me that he could have allied with the Lane Hacker agaisnt another navy person who did nothing wrong, I will consider it very carefully before following it.

The RP consequences, together with the RP/rule consequences that the [LN] are swaying around together with their piss poor attitude towards independent players, are something that seriously mess up indy players and my game. Thats why I am not interesteing in "playing along" with them, just as they are not interested in treating indy players like fellow player but like players they can push around with their pixel-authority.

I'm throwing this out as a third party that only has an unofficial navy character.

What you're having issues with, from the way it sounds here, is with the actual naval ranking system.

In role play, and the way it's set up here, the [LN] as the official faction is considered 'the navy' and every other officer that's not part of the 'the navy' is considered to be part of the 'navy reserve'. This is in simulation of real life, where active duty officers, even if they're a lower rank, hold command over reserve officers.

If you want to play navy reserve, that's up to you. I play as active duty. I have a LN ID, not a LN reserve ID. There is nothing in the rules that says I or anyone else have to play as navy reserve, or that we have to RP as inferiors to the official faction members. I believe the rules are tailored in a way so that exactly what you and the [LN] guys here are trying to make happen doesnt happen.

This is all in RP, and has nothing to do with the server rules, where the faction leader or the 2iC can issue commands.

Do you see the difference here? Under his role play as an active duty naval officer, Morse was issuing you a command since you're a reserve officer.

I'm not a reserve officer just because he or you decided it, just like he wouldnt be my cabin boy if I decided that I'm an admiral and he's my cabin boy.

While under the Laws of Liberty, merely possessing a pirate ID makes you a criminal, that doesn't mean that just because you as a naval officer happen to SEE a pirate, you should automatically just try to kill him. That's not your primary job, and that's what it sounds like was happening here. Your primary job as a naval officer is the defense of Liberty from the attacks by Rheinland and Gallia - and just because you happen across a two-bit pirate - just call in an LPI or a bounty hunter, or tell the pirate to go away and disappear makes more sense than getting involved yourself.

So you decided to totally disregard what I actually said and decided that I am complaining because Morse didnt attack the lane hacker, or what?

Nowhere, anywhere, did I say that I wanted him to attack the lane hacker.

What I said was that I didnt want him to pretend he is my superior when he is not, and that I didnt want him to order me to stand down when he has not right to do so.

And yes, the the LN ID clearly say that as navy I can hunt pirates, so Morse has no right to tell me not to do it. I dont HAVE to do it, but he cant tell me NOT to do it.

In other words, YOU weren't role-playing like you're a member of a military organization, and he was. In a real military, he WOULD have authority over you and COULD issue orders that you have to follow.

First you came here and decided that I am in the reserve when I am actually not, and am in no way required to RP as that. If people RPed as being in the reserve and not active duty they would be doing nothing but training until some official guy blew in his dog whistle.

Then you misrepresented what I said and pretended I wanted Morse to attack the hacker, which I did not, just to tell me that I am wrong.

In other words, either you dont know how to read or you're just another official faction guy (BHG Core right?) trying to make indies believe they have to blindly obey orders from all official faciton guys, when the faction rules specifically protect them from this kind of thing.

[Agmen of Eladesor]

In other words, either you dont know how to read or you're just another official faction guy (BHG Core right?) trying to make indies believe they have to blindly obey orders from all official faciton guys, when the faction rules specifically protect them from this kind of thing.

The BHG|Core is a Private Military Company. And really other than when something really retarded happens, none of the other guys in our group have to issue orders, because we're mostly out there killing Order and salvaging stuff from squids anyway for our own purposes. And typically I'm the only issuing orders per se, unless it's one of my 2iC's when we're doing tactical things.

But more importantly - did you actually READ the Laws of Liberty that I linked to earlier? Here's a couple of interesting tidbits that you may have missed:

Liberty forces means the Liberty Police Incorporated, the Liberty Security Force and the Liberty Navy.

Primary fleets means any [LN], =LSF= or LPI- tagged vessels.

In other words, while you're part of the Liberty Forces, you're not part of the primary fleet regardless of how you think you're playing.

All warships bearing Liberty Navy Guard, Liberty Security Force Guard and Liberty Police Incorporated Guard identification must be listed at the designated registry. This list will keep the following information:

Identification (Liberty Navy, LSF or LPI)
Name (LNS-Washington, for example)
Warship class (Seige Cruiser, Battlecruiser, and so on)

Exceptions are any warships belonging to the main wings of the Liberty Navy, LSF and LPI. That being the [LN], the =LSF= and the LPI-. The information on those warships will be stored in a more secure location, often with additional tactical data.

And of course, this one:

Attempts to lecture Primary Fleet personnel on the meaning (note, not the content) of any section of any legal document falls under section one, paragraph four of this document and will be dealt with accordingly.

In other words - yeah, he had role play authority over your character, because whether you want it or not, you're still in the naval reserves because you're not in the primary fleet. Period. End of discussion - because that's how the role play Laws of Liberty ON THIS SERVER are set up. Don't like it? I can't help that - and arguing with me about it won't help, either. As far as the Primary Fleet - and remember that under the rules of the server, the Official Faction is considered the LoreKeeper FOR the Navy here - he's a higher ranking officer than you are.

Again, period, end of discussion.

Were you ever in the military? If so, then you know that if you're issued an order from a higher ranking officer, you may be able to question it - but you're still required to obey it. So this isn't about official faction rights here - this is about military discipline. And you failed - miserably.

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[JohnRambo]

But more importantly - did you actually READ the Laws of Liberty that I linked to earlier? Here's a couple of interesting tidbits that you may have missed:

Liberty forces means the Liberty Police Incorporated, the Liberty Security Force and the Liberty Navy.

Primary fleets means any [LN], =LSF= or LPI- tagged vessels.

In other words, while you're part of the Liberty Forces, you're not part of the primary fleet regardless of how you think you're playing.

Yeah I read it, and I read it before you linked it. Before making the thread, actually.

No where in there does it say that everyone in the primary fleet outranks everyone in the secondary or indy fleet. The word "reserve" fleet that you came up with is not mentioned a single time in the entire document. There are a few things mentioned there that only primary fleet can do, for example carry contrabande, or order attacks on non-criminals (later goes only for members of the high command structure, which would hardly be a lieutenant).

No where does it say that primary fleet members can protect and ally with criminals, against anybody.

Furthermore I never said I was part of the primary fleet, like you are insinuating there. I said that the primary fleet does NOT have the right of command over me when it comes to standing down against criminals, and that goes ESPECIALLY for guys who arent 1st or 2nd in command of the primary fleet. If I WAS member of the primary fleet and lower ranked than lieutenant, yeah I would have to obey or get kicked out of the primary fleet. But since I'm neither, the guy simply doenst have command authority over me.

I've said this very clearly the first time, and repeated it countless times since then, and here you go again... some guy from an official faction (BHG COre this time) totally misrepresents what I say, and totally misrepresents the IRP or OORP laws.

If you cant get there through reasonable argumentation, get there with numbers and misrepresentations. Its rather sad.

All warships bearing Liberty Navy Guard, Liberty Security Force Guard and Liberty Police Incorporated Guard identification must be listed at the designated registry. This list will keep the following information:

Identification (Liberty Navy, LSF or LPI)
Name (LNS-Washington, for example)
Warship class (Seige Cruiser, Battlecruiser, and so on)

Exceptions are any warships belonging to the main wings of the Liberty Navy, LSF and LPI. That being the [LN], the =LSF= and the LPI-. The information on those warships will be stored in a more secure location, often with additional tactical data.

Nothing in what you quoted there has anything to do with anything I said or what happened. I dont have a guard ID of IFF, I dont have a cap ship, I dont have a [LN] tag, I dont have a LNS tag, neither am I required to have any of those, or to be in a regiry since I dont have anything guard.

Did you just want to quote more stuff so you will look like you have anything to say? Sorry but you're really making a fool of yourself.

And of course, this one:

Attempts to lecture Primary Fleet personnel on the meaning (note, not the content) of any section of any legal document falls under section one, paragraph four of this document and will be dealt with accordingly.

As said above, no where do the liberty laws mention that lieutenants of the primary fleet can order secondary/indy fleet to stop persuing criminals. So if I reply that he cant order me to do that, it's not lecturing him about the meaning of anything written in those laws. You alos cut out the part where it says that this applies to civilians. I'm not a civilian. If you are going to apply what you quoted there to the letter, a primary fleet guy could go up to a DSE and say "I'm going to kill you" and when the DSE guys answers "Thats against the law" he would be guilty of causing public unrest and obstrucintg justice. I'm sure thats how some of you official guys would like things to be, but no, they can not be like that.

In other words - yeah, he had role play authority over your character, because whether you want it or not, you're still in the naval reserves because you're not in the primary fleet. Period. End of discussion - because that's how the role play Laws of Liberty ON THIS SERVER are set up. Don't like it? I can't help that - and arguing with me about it won't help, either. As far as the Primary Fleet - and remember that under the rules of the server, the Official Faction is considered the LoreKeeper FOR the Navy here - he's a higher ranking officer than you are.

Again, period, end of discussion.

Were you ever in the military? If so, then you know that if you're issued an order from a higher ranking officer, you may be able to question it - but you're still required to obey it. So this isn't about official faction rights here - this is about military discipline. And you failed - miserably.

Lets summarize.

1: The laws you linked to not even mention "reserves". Looks like you made that up off of your head

2: The laws you linked do not say that eveyrone in the primary fleet automatically outranks everyone in the secondary fleet.

3: You quoted some stuff about guard IDs and registers which have absoltely nothing to do with all of this, and then you pretended like I said I was in the primary fleet which I never did.

4: You say some stuff about the primary fleet being the guardian of the lore and stuff. In this case the guardian of the lore was having a friendly conversation with a wanted criminal next to manhattan, ordered navy to do nothing against this pirate with the only justification that they "get along", then said that even if he was the lowest rank in the primary fleet he would still outrank everyone else, and then after his pirate friend attacked me he ordered anothe navy ship to let the pirate "teach Rambo a lesson" and let him die. Awesome guardian of the lore, man. Awesome.

5: Then you conclude that I failed miserably to obey military discipline because I disobeyed him. You totally ignore that (a) the reason I talked back was not because I wanted to disobey a superior officer, but because the guy was in fact not my superior officer like he claimed. (b) I actually didnt attack the hacker until he attacked me, which would would still be in the range of what you called "you may question but not disobey".

6. Two of he primary guys involved in this already apologized and I accepted, but you continue to bang on about how official faciton guys can order everyone around under some reserve RP thing which doesnt exist and how its end of discussion END OF DISCUSSIO PERIOD END OF DISCUSSION.

In conlusion I would say that you have failed miserably at producing even the smallest shred of a valid arguement, and that you continue to make a fool of yourself.

So please, if you arent even going to inform yourself on what actually happened and what I actually said, or even properly understand te stuff you are quoting, and if you want this discusion to end, do be quiet and let the admins answer this. But if you still want to keep producing your moot arguments, made up RP laws, and quotes which have nothing to do with any of the matter at hand, I'll be here for you, to answer it. Because I'm patient like that.

p.s: When it comes to military discipline, no one fails harder than [LN] loverboys who order navy to let their pirate "girlfriends" go, higher ranked or not.

[McNeo]

It seems you have been given the correct answer, yet because it is not what you wanted to hear, you cling on to the hope that you will be proven correct. It's common to see, I do it too with certain things.

Who am I? I'm the guy who wrote most of those laws.

The technicality of whether you're a reserve or not is inconsequential. InRP, [LN] personnel hold ranking authority over independent players. Why is this? Because the [LN] are recognised as the representatives of the Liberty Navy NPC faction, and their players have subjected themselves to many restrictions that the faction places, most notably the restriction of capital ships, other rank restrictions and the required adherence to a much stricter chain of command than you. Nowhere is this written, but you will find that the [LN] roleplays that. You don't have to like it, you don't even have to play along. You can just let the [LN] play in their own little world if you like.

Now, when they issue orders, you're not obliged to obey or even acknowledge them, as would be your choice if it were real. That's roleplay, as long as you have a character-driven reason to do so. And in roleplay, the [LN] will respond as it deems appropriate. Whether you agree with those consequences, inRP or OORP, is also totally irrelevant. If you piss them off enough and give them a reason to exercise their right to make you hostile to the faction, and that's not okay with you, you should have thought about it before.

The [LN], and official factions in general, have these powers because they earned them and continue to be official representatives of that NPC faction. You're free to disagree and disobey inRP, and they're free to use the tools they've been given to force your compliance or eject your character from the faction. If you don't like the consequences, don't play the game. There are plenty of other factions that run their space in less authoritarian ways.

Your last line really sums it up - you're complaining in an OORP manner about an inRP event. "Letting someone go" isn't against the rules. In fact, the Liberty Navy ID doesn't obligate anybody who equips it to actually fight pirates, terrorists or wars with other houses. You could have a Liberty Navy character that just doesn't shoot his/her guns.

Lots of people don't like being told what to do by people they don't know, have never met and have no respect for. Unfortunately, that is what a military is like. I don't think many recruits or lowly ranked officers have had more than a passing exchange of words with the top of their command chain. Furthermore, this is what Liberty is like. Maybe you don't like it, and that's okay. But nobody is forcing you to do anything, like they would be in real life.

Now sure, you can say that I am/used to be [LN], and are therefore "biased". However, it's quite obvious you're hoping that someone of authority will actually take your side and exercise some consequences on the [LN] faction or the [LN] player in question. Unfortunately you have not taken the steps that would potentially result in RP consequences for the character, nor have you taken the steps that would potentially result in OORP consequences for the player.

That makes this thread a general complaint thread. Official factions tend not to be so responsive to those, if that was your intention. If it was instead your intention to show the [LN] in a negative light, I can only tell you that the faction is used to it, with the same people showing up on each side to attack or defend it.

[sindroms]

A quick question here.
I am the only one troubled that we are still referring to the LN IDed playerbase as a ''Primary'' and ''secondary'' fleets to begin with? It seems very...industrial revolution-ish.

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