Question about Liberty Navy rights

[Sarawr!?]

RP is RP.

inRP laws and rules are inRP laws and rules.

inRP laws and rules =/= Server Rules.

It's pretty much that simple.

If somebody is Roleplaying in a manner that's not the typical "OMG ENEMY KILL IT!!!", that's their choice, this is a Roleplay server, after all.

You of course, as a Navy ID'd player are free to disagree with say, a primary fleet ( [LN] ) member's decision on a matter like that, but let me ask you this: Why? Why do that? If there's some Roleplay going on, and nobody's being harmed, and a situation appears to be under control, why bother barging in and killing all the things?

In that example, there's really no reason to get involved in a situation that's already under control.

Now, if say an [LN] member allies with a Lane Hacker ID'd player and helps him kill other Navy ID'd players, that's OORP, and a sanction report should be immediately filed (And you should probably PM me, too, so I can kick that person out of the faction.) Now I know that isn't what happened, but I'm just saying.

There's a difference between inRP rules and laws, and Server rules.

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[LN] Recruitment | Rachel Baker Bio

[McNeo]

This is absolutely not true. Just because there was no sanction doenst mean there was no rule broken.

If there was a rule broken and not sanction, there is a whole plethora or reasons why that could be:
-the violation was not reported
-the admins thought the person was only reporting to get revenge
-the admins thought there was not enough evidence
-the admins thought the rule violation was minor and unintentional and did not harm gameplay
-the admins were to busy and the report was not writen in a way that made it easy for them to process it, for example no screenies or hard to understand naration. They could check what happened with server logs, but decide that its not worth it.

All of these have been given as justification for not sanctioning people although they admit a rule violation may have happened.

Ask any admin if he disagrees.

I think you know this to be true, but state it anyway to hide behind the fact that no sanction happened or is happening.

If no sanction appears, there is no formal recognition of a broken rule, whether one is broken or not. This makes the end result the same as if no rule were broken. Whether a rule was broken or not is actually irrelevant.

You keep clinging on to events rather than their consequences. There is no difference between flying to Beijing and cycling to Beijing - you still end up in Beijing.

I want you to say something, anything, that doesnt look like an at the same time arrogant and desperate attempt to throw sand in my and other people's eyes to hide that the [LN] is nothing like an official faction should be, but instead a cespit of powergaming through oorp alliances, bad navy RP, arrogance, contempt, and willful misleading with the intent of power abuse.

I would argue that you are the one twisting my words and trying to throw sand in people's eyes in most cases, and that you already knew how the [LN] operated in the past but simply thought that to have it displayed would strengthen your case if you changed the wording a bit and altered the perspective.

But you know, if you think you can do better, you're free to try.

Yeah that's what people who commit fraud, who rob other people, and who bully other people say about their victims. It'S their fault for letting themselves be fooled by my lies. Its their fault for not taking better care of their property. It's their fault for being weak.

You mean, the people who constitute the richest and most powerful in the world today? All of these people got where they are by taking it from those less fortunate or less intelligent than themselves. You could argue the same about faction leaders here, but obviously to a much lesser extent given the importance of leading an official faction or being an admin is considerably diminished compared to leading a great business empire in the real world.

Deception is a fact of life, it always has been. If that makes me a terrible person, well, it's a product of the society in which both you and I live. Not that I think any deception happens in the case you describe - the "deception" stems from people making OORP and incorrect assumptions about what is being said inRP. Deception is the act lying or tricking someone, but if this does happen in the example we were arguing over, it would be solved if people stopped making OORP assumptions in an RP environment.

I think you will find that nice guys finish last. There are a few exceptions to this, such as Joe was in my opinion, since I tended to be far more ruthless than he was to the extent that he would actively stop me, but that's a different discussion.

How about: For the fun of playing in an organized and co-operative way, efficiently working in a group, with well thought through RP and high standards which will be tested and rewarded with ranks, and the feeling of achieving merit by climbing up in hte organization through good behavior?

You don't need to be in an official faction for any of this.

Agreed. However this fact does not warrant that a [LN] should begin doing stupid and illogical RP under the pretext of making things fair when he's really jsut trying to help his win in an unfair way.

What I meant here is that official faction members are bound by the rules to take OORP considerations into account when managing a fight. On an RP server, those rules are a little bit contradictory, but nevertheless that is the case. They then have to justify some of those decisions using a questionable RP premise, because those OORP considerations cannot be adequately explained inRP.

And you can not seriously pretend that the fact that 2 of the [LN] leaders were simultaneously admins, and also good friends with a number of other admins, wasnt going to affect the outcome of such rulings.

This is the most interesting thing you've said all argument, which to me says that you trust none of the systems or bodies of authority in this community. You say the rules are fine, but you don't trust the admins who made or enforce them. You don't trust anything here, so why are you playing here?

However, if what you said were really true, I'd rather two [LN] members were balance lead and storyline lead devs than admins. I'd trade a few sanctions for more reasonable balance and a less farfetched storyline...

You can also quote whatever you like.

[JohnRambo]

RP is RP.
inRP laws and rules are inRP laws and rules.
inRP laws and rules =/= Server Rules.
It's pretty much that simple.

I don’t know how much and how carefully you read this thread, but this is what Morse said:

[12.09.2013 22:10:41] [LN]-Michael.Morse: Oh and incase you didn't notice
[12.09.2013 22:10:48] [LN]-Michael.Morse: I'm your superior officer
[12.09.2013 22:10:55] [LN]-Michael.Morse: So that's an order
[12.09.2013 22:10:59] [LN]-Michael.Morse: Stand Down
[12.09.2013 22:11:13] John.Rambo: Oh yeah? Whats your rank in the navy, Morse?
[12.09.2013 22:12:42] [LN]-Michael.Morse: I'm a Primary Fleet Lieutenant for your information
[12.09.2013 22:12:53] [LN]-Michael.Morse: So shot your trap pilot, before I do it for you
[12.09.2013 22:13:00] John.Rambo: Which means you aint squat authority over me Morse
[12.09.2013 22:13:17] [LN]-Michael.Morse: You do realize that ANY Primary fleet member
[12.09.2013 22:13:23] [LN]-Michael.Morse: Has authority over you
[12.09.2013 22:14:27] [LN]-Michael.Morse: I suggest you go read on up regs
[12.09.2013 22:14:28] John.Rambo: No you dont
[12.09.2013 22:14:42] John.Rambo: So you're first or second in command of the navy?
[12.09.2013 22:15:02] [LN]-Michael.Morse: Son, it wouldn't amtter if I was a wet behind the ears greengorn
[12.09.2013 22:15:11] [LN]-Michael.Morse: I'd STILL outrank you

He is asking my character to “read up on regs”, which according to him should show that he is the superior officer of all indy navy because he is primary fleet.

There are two “regs” that he could have been talking about.

1) The IRP laws of Sirius. These laws straight out don’t say that all primary fleet pilots are the superiors of all indy pilots.
2) The OORP server rules. It often happens that players try to talk about oorp server rules IRP, for example “I would have thought that your ship would have taken at least two hours to repair after you docked in the middle of combat because it was falling apart”.
3) Other IRP “regs” that exist only in the heads of the [LN] but which are not written down so I could actually read them

Either way, he’s asking me to read regulations that do not exist as he portraits them. He’s either mistaken on the content of the server rules, or on the laws of Sirius, or he’s trying to mislead me into thinking that I have to obey him according to OORP or IRP rules which actually don’t exist.

He apologized and so did Lythrilux, and I said ok no problem. Then several older [LN] start saying that the [LN] RP that all of them are superiors officers of all the indies, even if the server rules don’t say that they re, and even if they don’t even write it into the IRP laws of Sirius, and even if indies (as long as they know the faction rule and know that what the [LN] is saying is actually not at all binding) can just tell them to shut up and not obey them and RP like the [LN] pilots is actually not their superiors. Thing is… if the indies can RP that the [LN] are not their superiors, there is absolutely no point in the [LN] telling them that they are. The ONLY reason why a [LN] would tell an indy that he is superior would be to fool him into thinking that its true.

So everything points to the fact that Morse was not simply mistaken, but that the [LN] is systematically trying to make people believe things that are not true, about the laws of Sirius (IRP), and about the server rules (through things they say IRP).

Let me ask you… what kind of faction is this that? That IRPly fools people? That IRPly fools people into not knowing their rights in the server rules? Is that exemplary behavior? Is that being guardian of the lore and servergameplay?

No, its not at all as simple as “inRP laws and rules are inRP laws and rules.
inRP laws and rules =/= Server Rules.”

Firstly , because the IRP laws do not actually say that what the [LN] claims to be RPing. Secondly, because by acting like you do, you knowingly try to mislead players about the server rules. Thirdly, because the RP that this produces is absolutely idiotic.

If somebody is Roleplaying in a manner that's not the typical "OMG ENEMY KILL IT!!!", that's their choice, this is a Roleplay server, after all.

Exactly. But I think you are totally twisting things around if you are insinuating that I play like this.
Because I didn’t start the engagement with the Hacker, I just told him to surrender and continued a conversation in which he claimed that he doesn’t break laws, but he did say he was a member of the lane hackers, and I explained to him that being a member of a criminal organization is still against the law, even if you don’t break other laws than being in that organization. That’s when Morse said what I quoted, and after that the Hacker attacked me, and I defended myself. I hadn’t fired a single shot at him before he attacked. I was actually RPing with him, with realistic navy RP, when the hacker decided to attack and Morse decided to forbid other navies from helping me so that the hacker could help me.

And you wanna know why this happened?

Because the [LN] told Morse that he is the superior to every indy, so he didn’t feel he had to do any sort of logical RP. He just pulled rank and then continued with his anti-navy pro-pirate RP, because that’s what [LN] made him think was the right thing.

You of course, as a Navy ID'd player are free to disagree with say, a primary fleet ( [LN] ) member's decision on a matter like that, but let me ask you this: Why? Why do that?

I didn’t interfere with Morse’s RP, he interfered with my RP with the lane hacker. Ask him why.
After he did that, I did not comply with his orders because he failed to give a single sensible reason why I should. I never agreed to him being my superior, and I am not required to be, nor to obey. He didn’t give any other reason why I should stand down. Just his non-existent authority over me.

If there's some Roleplay going on, and nobody's being harmed, and a situation appears to be under control, why bother barging in and killing all the things?

First, I did not start the engagement. I did navy RP. If the hacker didn’t like my RP, he should have stayed away from where he will surely find navy. There are a great number of places, some of the very close, where he could have talked to who ever he wanted, without bumping into other navies than those he wanted to talk to. Instead, came to Manhattan with a big fat red hacker tag, and rellied on Morse to sort things out for him by going against his own faction and siding with his enemies. Because that’s what he knew he can expect from [LN].

In that example, there's really no reason to get involved in a situation that's already under control.

What example do you speak of? The Morse one or the l33tsabregirl one?
If you are talking about the Morse one, this is what happened:
Morse, a LSF guy, a Freelancer (Melissa) and me were talking to a junker who the LSF guy had allegedly seen transport cardi to Manhattan. While we were talking and letting the junker go with a fine, the lane hacker showed up and started talking to Melissa like old friends. Because its my job, I asked the lane hacker to hand himself in and surrender. He said he didn’t commit any crimes, and I said being part of the lane hackers is a crime, and he should surrender. Then Morse said him and the hacker get along and ordered me to stand down, giving no other explanation than that he was my superior. When I said he wasn’t my superior, the lane hacker attacked me. When another navy indy told the hacker to stop his attack on me, Morse told him to stand down so I would learn a lesson. Another navy guy called Joshua Ashfield showed up and they started talking casually while we were fighting. When I had over 30 bots left and the lane hacker 1, he started fleeing. When he started fleeing, they other indy navy and Joshua Ashfield suddenly decided they were going to shoot him too now. The hacker docked at Rochester, and when I went back to Manhattan Morse was gone.

So…
What did I do wrong?
Where did I “butt in and get involved when the situation was under control?

Now, if say an [LN] member allies with a Lane Hacker ID'd player and helps him kill other Navy ID'd players, that's OORP, and a sanction report should be immediately filed (And you should probably PM me, too, so I can kick that person out of the faction.) Now I know that isn't what happened, but I'm just saying.

There's a difference between inRP rules and laws, and Server rules.

To me, if a [LN] guy orders an indy navy to not help another navy against pirates, that’s helping pirates.

To me, if a [LN] guy orders and indy navy to not attack a pirate, that’S helping pirates.

There is no point in trying to go after individuals if this is the norm behavior of [LN]. Expecially when it’s the norm behavior that the faction leader of [LN] encourages. A faction leader who is also an admin. (which were the last 2)

If no sanction appears, there is no formal recognition of a broken rule, whether one is broken or not. This makes the end result the same as if no rule were broken. Whether a rule was broken or not is actually irrelevant.

That’s like saying if no one was convicted for a murder, the murder didn’t happen and the victim must have shot himself in the head 10 times by himself.

I think I’m really very patient for continuing to answer to someone who is arguing on your level. The way you manage to continue writing statements like that simply amazes me. I guess you’ve spent way too much time justifying things to yourself that are actually unjustifiable.

Ok since I’m really patient let me explain to you why its not irrelevant and the result is NOT the same as no rule being broken.
-the guy who broke the rule did not have any respect for rules or the player he wronged by breaking the rule. If he gets away with it, he will feel encouraged to do the same thing again
-The guy who saw the rule being broken and who was wronged knows the above, and the victim is now also angry at the admins. He will lose his respect for players, admins, and the rules.

You keep clinging on to events rather than their consequences. There is no difference between flying to Beijing and cycling to Beijing - you still end up in Beijing.

Yes there is a difference. If you cycled you probably took longer, burned les jetfuel, spent less money, spent more energy, and a whole lot of other things. All of those are also consequences. Just because you decide to ignore them doesn’t mean they didn’t happen. You must have felt really clever when you wrote that, but its not clever at all really.

Yeah that's what people who commit fraud, who rob other people, and who bully other people say about their victims. It'S their fault for letting themselves be fooled by my lies. Its their fault for not taking better care of their property. It's their fault for being weak.

You mean, the people who constitute the richest and most powerful in the world today? All of these people got where they are by taking it from those less fortunate or less intelligent than themselves. You could argue the same about faction leaders here, but obviously to a much lesser extent given the importance of leading an official faction or being an admin is considerably diminished compared to leading a great business empire in the real world.

Deception is a fact of life, it always has been. If that makes me a terrible person, well, it's a product of the society in which both you and I live.

Bad things happen in the world, and robbing a bank is easier than making the money with hard work. That’s why its ok to lie and steal, and people shouldn’t complain about it nor enforce laws against it. Wow. You’re a real expert on how societies work.

Not that I think any deception happens in the case you describe - the "deception" stems from people making OORP and incorrect assumptions about what is being said inRP. Deception is the act lying or tricking someone, but if this does happen in the example we were arguing over, it would be solved if people stopped making OORP assumptions in an RP environment.

Something I answered to lolrawr also answers that.

I don’t know how much and how carefully you read this thread, but this is what Morse said:

[12.09.2013 22:10:41] [LN]-Michael.Morse: Oh and incase you didn't notice
[12.09.2013 22:10:48] [LN]-Michael.Morse: I'm your superior officer
[12.09.2013 22:10:55] [LN]-Michael.Morse: So that's an order
[12.09.2013 22:10:59] [LN]-Michael.Morse: Stand Down
[12.09.2013 22:11:13] John.Rambo: Oh yeah? Whats your rank in the navy, Morse?
[12.09.2013 22:12:42] [LN]-Michael.Morse: I'm a Primary Fleet Lieutenant for your information
[12.09.2013 22:12:53] [LN]-Michael.Morse: So shot your trap pilot, before I do it for you
[12.09.2013 22:13:00] John.Rambo: Which means you aint squat authority over me Morse
[12.09.2013 22:13:17] [LN]-Michael.Morse: You do realize that ANY Primary fleet member
[12.09.2013 22:13:23] [LN]-Michael.Morse: Has authority over you
[12.09.2013 22:14:27] [LN]-Michael.Morse: I suggest you go read on up regs
[12.09.2013 22:14:28] John.Rambo: No you dont
[12.09.2013 22:14:42] John.Rambo: So you're first or second in command of the navy?
[12.09.2013 22:15:02] [LN]-Michael.Morse: Son, it wouldn't amtter if I was a wet behind the ears greengorn
[12.09.2013 22:15:11] [LN]-Michael.Morse: I'd STILL outrank you

He is asking my character to “read up on regs”, which according to him should show that he is the superior officer of all indy navy because he is primary fleet.

There are two “regs” that he could have been talking about.

1) The IRP laws of Sirius. These laws straight out don’t say that all primary fleet pilots are the superiors of all indy pilots.
2) The OORP server rules. It often happens that players try to talk about oorp server rules IRP, for example “I would have thought that your ship would have taken at least two hours to repair after you docked in the middle of combat because it was falling apart”.
3) Other IRP “regs” that exist only in the heads of the [LN] but which are not written down so I could actually read them

Yeeeeahhhhh no attempt of deception. And of course neither when every [LN] flies around telling people they are their superiors although that is neither in the laws of Sirius and neither in the server rules, but just simply something they like to think and like other people to think.

I think you will find that nice guys finish last. There are a few exceptions to this, such as Joe was in my opinion, since I tended to be far more ruthless than he was to the extent that he would actively stop me, but that's a different discussion.

In discoveryGC the nice guys finish last maybe. But not in every society community. For example when I look at my professional surroundings I’d say being nice pays off much more than being an aggressive dishonest selfish twat. It’s the rotten communities where they nice guys finish last. Its up to the members of a community to decide what kind they want to be in.

How about: For the fun of playing in an organized and co-operative way, efficiently working in a group, with well thought through RP and high standards which will be tested and rewarded with ranks, and the feeling of achieving merit by climbing up in hte organization through good behavior?

You don't need to be in an official faction for any of this.

So for you, being in an official faction is only about getting to boss people around?

What I meant here is that official faction members are bound by the rules to take OORP considerations into account when managing a fight. On an RP server, those rules are a little bit contradictory, but nevertheless that is the case. They then have to justify some of those decisions using a questionable RP premise, because those OORP considerations cannot be adequately explained inRP.

What rules bind members of official factions to take what OORP considerations into account?

And you can not seriously pretend that the fact that 2 of the [LN] leaders were simultaneously admins, and also good friends with a number of other admins, wasnt going to affect the outcome of such rulings.

This is the most interesting thing you've said all argument, which to me says that you trust none of the systems or bodies of authority in this community. You say the rules are fine, but you don't trust the admins who made or enforce them. You don't trust anything here, so why are you playing here?

I don’t trust the 2 admins who tell members of the official faction they lead to go and tell players that they are their superiors although its not written in the IRP laws and not in the server rules.
Just because I don’t trust certain people it doenst meant I don’t trust anyone.
As for the question to why I play here, its because I like playing freelancer on RP servers.

[McNeo]

I think I'm going to start bleeding if I bash my head any more against the granite that yours is made out of. You purposely miss the point simply because it doesn't fit into your well-organised world. It's astounding that you think can do it and that you're making a valid point by doing it.

Anyway, good luck with that admin response you're after.

Yes, I give up. Yes, that means I lost the argument, and that you're right, and that the [LN] is a bad faction full of bad people who go out of their way to make the lives of those outside it so bad that they contemplate suicide as a means of ejecting themselves from the torrid cycle of bashing, hurting and getting shot at out of roleplay.

Oh such heathens are we/they/us.

[Sarawr!?]

People are free to RP in whatever manner suits them, whether or not you go along with them is up to you.

As long as no server rule violations took place, if Morse's character wants to not do his job, that's his choice, neither do his actions indicate the nature of the entire faction as it stands.

Take a step back and relax.

RP the way you want to RP, accept whatever repercussions may or may not be caused by your RP, and be willing to accept that other people are going to RP in many different ways as well.

No two characters will deal with a situation in the same way, just because they're from the same faction.

You're gonna RP the way you RP, and others are gonna RP the way they RP.

This is a game, we play it to have fun, we all find fun in our own ways.

It's really that simple.

This thread has no point and does not need to continue past this.

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[LN] Recruitment | Rachel Baker Bio

[Agmen of Eladesor]

This thread has no point and does not need to continue past this.

It did, however, serve one purpose. To show that there is someone who is more stubborn, mulish, and argumentative than I am. (And no, I'm not insulting him, I'm complimenting him. For years I've had that title on here - I have been dethroned.)

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[Jihadjoe]

It did, however, serve one purpose. To show that there is someone who is more stubborn, mulish, and argumentative than I am. (And no, I'm not insulting him, I'm complimenting him. For years I've had that title on here - I have been dethroned.)

Karlotta has been around for years, man. Stubborn and argumentative have been K's realm since disco-forever.

I heard there was some relation between inflexibility and brittleness...

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[Agmen of Eladesor]

It did, however, serve one purpose. To show that there is someone who is more stubborn, mulish, and argumentative than I am. (And no, I'm not insulting him, I'm complimenting him. For years I've had that title on here - I have been dethroned.)

Karlotta has been around for years, man. Stubborn and argumentative have been K's realm since disco-forever.

I heard there was some relation between inflexibility and brittleness...

Okay, if Rambo is Karlotta, a lot of things make sense now. Especially the vendetta against you - even if I never did actually understand WHY there was a vendetta between he/she/it against you...

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[JohnRambo]

I think I'm going to start bleeding if I bash my head any more against the granite that yours is made out of. You purposely miss the point simply because it doesn't fit into your well-organised world. It's astounding that you think can do it and that you're making a valid point by doing it.

If you think I missed the point on anything, you are free to re-iterate it. My feeling is that you were simply unaware about how ridiculous some of the points and analogies you raised really were, and that there simply was no valid point in what you said in the first place. But, as I said, feel free to explain yourself more.

Anyway, good luck with that admin response you're after.

It seems they don’t really care at the moment. Either that or they are reluctant to answer because they can’t give a correct answer without upsetting some of the long term members of the “community”. Either way, I still think I learned a lot from this discussion, and maybe you learned something too, even if you made all the efforts you could not to.

Yes, I give up. Yes, that means I lost the argument, and that you're right, and that the [LN] is a bad faction full of bad people who go out of their way to make the lives of those outside it so bad that they contemplate suicide as a means of ejecting themselves from the torrid cycle of bashing, hurting and getting shot at out of roleplay.
Oh such heathens are we/they/us.

I think you guys are just a lot less clever than you think, worse role-players than you think, less fair than you think, and a lot less helpful in making disco a nice experience than you think. The reason you misjudge yourselves in all of these matters is because you too caught up in the belief that you must be superior to other players, because of some rank or status that you gained through long membership in a computer gaming community, and you feel that you don’t need to think about other people’s criticisms or thoughts because they can’t touch you anyway. This has made you lose the ability to listen and think rationally, outside of your microcosm which you are used to, in which you win arguments not by rational discussion and logic but by influence that you have in the community.

People are free to RP in whatever manner suits them, whether or not you go along with them is up to you.
As long as no server rule violations took place, if Morse's character wants to not do his job, that's his choice, neither do his actions indicate the nature of the entire faction as it stands.

You're gonna RP the way you RP, and others are gonna RP the way they RP.
This is a game, we play it to have fun, we all find fun in our own ways.

This discussion started because the [LN] does not let indies RP in what ever manner suits them (not even in the canon LN RP way), but tries to force them to RP in the way that the [LN] want, which is to only fulfill the canon LN RP if the pirate is a guy that they don’t like, and do OORP motivated RP just to make sure that the player that is more skilled in PvP wins, and not the player who thinks tactically and plays according to the canon RP.
I already explained to you how Morse interfered with me and not the other way round (and how the [LN] commonly interferes with other indy’S RP), but you chose to ignore it and just repeat your empty phrases, pretending that we were trying to make navies behave in a certain way. I never asked that [LN] attack pirates if they don’t want to. I asked that they stop indy navy from RPing the way they want, in particular because they RP of the indy navy is much more logical than the baloney that the [LN] cough up to try to make them change the way they RP.

This thread has no point and does not need to continue past this.

I think there is a very clear an necessary point in this thread, and its that we talk about how the [LN] and indy navy get along, and if we are on the same page when it comes to the rules, and on what is fair, and on what is bad behavior. It was necessary to talk about these things because as you can see in the diverse opinions that surfaced in this thread, there seems to be large disagreement on all of this. Members of the [LN], and you too, talked about the necessity of fairness and upholding of RP standards by the [LN]. But when I ask you to elaborate and look at the events as they happened, you ignored what I said, ignored my question on how you think you are upholding OORP standards and what those are, you just repeat the same phrases and say no more discussion.

So if the discussion ends here, let me summarize what I learned here from you.
The [LN] RPs that all of them are the superiors of all navy indies, and tells this to indy navies IRP, although there is no basis for this in the server rules or in the IRP laws they wrote down. They know that this will cause friction with the indy navies who know those rules and laws, but don’t see a problem in the weird RP that is created this way, a RP which is that basically the navy is a bunch of people who claim they have higher rank and give orders and they other party says “nuh-uh” and ignores them. On the other hand, some indy navies will get fooled into thinking that they really have to do everything the [LN] says although really don’t have to, which is what the [LN] really wants. The orders that the [LN] gives to these indies are mainly intended to help unlawfuls in fights, which the [LN] claims to be intended to promote “fairness”. This fairness consists of breaking canon navy RP to make sure that the more skilled player wins the fight, which basically leaves new players without a chance in hell against the PvP pros who are hunting for blue messages. The fact that navy RP is broken, hatred between [LN] and indies is sown, and that its not really fair to force a noob to get blown up by a pro without a chance is outweighed by the joy that the pros get from the blue message, according to the [LN]. Furthermore, the [LN] like to stop indies from attacking pirates, claiming that its for the sake of “RP”, when this “RP” consists of parading their “I’m a criminal” IFF and ID in front of law enforcement, exchanging friendly chit chat with [LN] in front of everybody, and then having the [LN] order the evil and stupid indies to not do anything against the pirate, simply because the [LN] like to RP being the superiors over others, without giving any sensible reason why the pirate should not be arrested or neutralized. All of this is justified by the official faction by “If we wanna RP our navy characters as being illogical non-canon-RP-conforming control freaks who help pirates and claim to have higher rank although they don’t we are free to do so because its RP”, while at the same time justifying their faction rights through the keeping of LN lore and RP. They also justify themselves by pointing out how bad and unfair the world is, and how the nice people don’t gain the power that the [LN] wants for itself anyway. And if someone tries to talk about the way they do things, they don’t need to listen unless the person has become some sort of faction leader anyway, or unless the admins intervene, which they know they wont, based on the experience that their [LN] faction leaders had when they were admins at the same time.
Well, I’ll probably never become one of those here, and if the admins wanted to say anything about this they probably would have already (and the ex-admin faction leader wouldn’t be so sure that they wont say anything against the navy anyway). So you wont listen, but let me give you my opinion anyway.
The official [LN] faction should stop RPing all of their members as ranking above independent navy players, and should stop giving them orders that go against non-canon RP. They should stop adopting a bossy, arrogant, and contemptful attitude towards independent players who act according to navy RP. They should stop trying to get independent players to not play in capitol ships by telling them to stand down as soon as they show up on radar. They should stop telling independent players to not help other navy players just so the PvP pro can win without making the effort of thinking of smart tactical moves. They should stop just rellying on their faction status to do illogical RP as openly siding with pirates and protecting them thinking that their RP is better simply because they talk and don’t shoot, and stop condemning players who also shoot and don’t just talk when it comes to fulfilling their faction’s RP. They should stop restricting their recruitment to people who are willing to skype and answer all their questions about OORP motivated RP to their liking.
Instead the official [LN] faction should only attempt to give orders to indies if they are first or seond in command. The rest treat indies on an eye to eye level and avoid giving them any sort of orders. The [LN] should invite any player who wants to play as navy into their ranks, especially the new and inexperienced ones. They can make a “recruit” or “ensign” rank which doesn’t need to give their skype, for which the only requirement is that they obey rules and obey the [LN] superiors. They will receive fighter and bomber PvP training, and could be restricted to only leave Virginia if lead by a non ensign/rectruit player. Thay way the [LN] will get more people who are willing to listen to them, more people who fly snubs, and more players they can get along and talk to. The recruits can have all the indy LN ships they want, but the [LN] should make it more fun for them to work as a team with snubs. Positive incentives, not punishment through OORP “stand down and go die” RP. The [LN] just need one non recruit/ensign guy online to lead a squad of 4 people, teach them how to act. Hopefully even activity woes will become a thing of the past. They will be able to counter RNC attacks better. Right now even the indy bunch of RNC are better organized and more capable than the [LN]. If someone wants to go above ensign/recruit rank, they can go through your skype and so on recruitment process, after they got a taste of it. Be more open. Be more friendly. So much could be solved if you just gave up your l33t attitude. Its getting in the way of the judgment of all of you. Also stop telling yourself that if someone says something you dont like, its a vendetta against your person. That person may be helping you more than you realize.

[Johnnie-Lapierre]

The super long stories won`t help because I doubt anyone reads them.
Oh and an advice, leave Liberty for a another zone. I agree that Liberty is very populated but... Atleast for me it lost everything when I had to stand in the stupidity of LNS...