The mentality of hiring escorts and why it is a flawed premise

[sindroms]

Sup, time for a wall of text.
Usual rules apply, READ THE EFFING OPENING POST BEFORE COMMENTING.
Ye.




Anyway, let's begin.
So, how many times over your stay with us have you heard the term "Space is Dangerous, you should have hired an escort." or any of its many variations. Quite a lot. At least I have. Or should I say, I have made.

In order to give some sort of context to what will be said below, I need to quickly address how I personally came around the experience I currently have to make these judgements. Not to mention the possible solutions.




I began playing the game every day back in early to mid 84, and either it was just my views on the potential RP (I suppose I should mention I joined for the RP, I was pretty shait at pvp and never played Freelancer before) or whatever other reasons, but the first character I made was an unlawful one. And every single character I made after that was either a fully unlawful one or a junker, which I would smuggle with.

In short, I had simply no interest in lawful Rp. During this time, it is small surprise that I had plenty of interactions with traders. Miners, not so much, it was simply not as profitable back then as it is today. So it was obvious that my actions would sometimes peev someone off and they would start raging and while I do not clearly remember where I learned that phrase, I would simply remind them that they should hire freelancers. This is the same thing I told people who where whining at me or at others, ingame, on the forum or on skype.

As time went by, I started making new characters to explore more. Some freelancers here and there, heck, even a trader. And this is where I started to see the light from the other side of the problem. It was only then, when I decided to make a freelancer IDed ship to only use for escorting.


I remember it pretty well, I was flying an eagle with onyxes and a guy in a kusari container transport was hauling boron to bretonia. I told him if he needed some protection and, when he agreed, he asked me a question that made me realize the inherent problem with escorting.


"Sure. How much do you want per trip?"


That......
Is a good question.

How much DID I want to get for babysitting this fellow right here. He was the transport, he was making 12 million per trip on average. Those routes would usually be A-B ones and the distance was around 15ish minutes.

This was really a tough question, because at that very moment I realized what makes piracy so utterly annoying to traders and what explains the lack of escorts.




The difference between chance and something pre-determined having impact on how much money you make.

The risk involved to further reinforce the actual need for an escort.





Well, the first thing that shot through my mind was that I wanted to see if escorting is a viable source of income. Which I already doubted.

In other words, I will be wasting 15 minutes per trip of my life and if the person will pay me two million for it, I am already severely dissappointed, because I could have done the same exact thing on my transport. And still would have made more, pirates or not.

I will not go into too much detail about how exactly it all works, but let me simply say that the trader, when he undocks from a planet with cargo, has to accept that there is a CHANCE that he will meet a pirate along the way. He might be killed and will lose a few mil in cargo, depending on what he was hauling at the time, or he might be charged for a couple of million. When he hires an escort, however, he is PRE-DETERMINED to pay his escort for every trip. Every single trip.

By flying without an escort, he has a risk of having his profits cut. If he is hiring an escort, he is most definitely going to lose profit.




Now, mind you back then a trader could re-enter a system for the purpose of trading, so perhaps today it is not as relevant, but my point here is that when it comes to regular trading, hiring an escort to minimize the damage done by pirates is utterly useless.

However, before you start yelling at me about the opposite, let me tell you where escorting DOES work.

Mining. Ore hauling to be exact.
This is where you will find escorts and where this deal is profitable for both sides.

For the sake of an example, let us say that you are a miner for yoursef. You mine all the ore, transfer it on your 5ker and you have 100% of the profit to yourself. Still, you must realize that most pirates are after ore haulers, because they will ask the most money from you. Not to mention cargo pirates on these routes, who will sometimes take 100% of your profit away from you.
Or even worse, a Xeno IDed guy in a bad mood, asking you to drop the cargo and shoot it.

This. This is the real risk that requires a player to buy protection. Not because space is inherently dangerious. It is most often not. Especially during the empty hours. It is because that this time, if you DO get caught, there is a massive chance that you will lose a LOT of money. If you make around 50 000 000 from the haul, the pirate might ask 25 mils. Or blow you up.

And this is where escorting works, because you can pay your escort 10 million in order to be sure that you will keep the 40 000 0000 credits nonetheless. At the same time, by paying the person 10 million credits, he is making more or less the same amount of money to run around from point A to point B as if he was on his transport. So sure, why not.

This is where Escorts work. This is how it actually should work.










So does this make our old used retort of ''should have gotten an escort'' mute? Nah, ofcourse not.

But there are ways to make it a bit better for both sides of the deal. The escort does not want to fly from point A to B thoughout mostly unpopulated systems for a messily sum they could be earning per minute on his trader. The trader does not want to pay the escort the same sum they would be paying the pirate IF they caught them.


I have three proposals.

First one is an already practiced example. Move in large groups. Split the escorting fee between all traders. Mathematically sound. Yes. Looks cool as fak? Check. Allows more interaction? Yeah, though not necessarily RP one. TS is fun tho.

Second one is for those who are not able to gather up a large group. Ones who are flying solo. Hire an escort and pay him not for the run itself, but a fixed sum for every pirate he kills. These players use the same char for bounty hunting most of the time. Take a look at the current bounty contracts in the house you are in, give them the offer of a sum just bigger than what the natives offer. BUT! AS YOU DO THIS! Check out who else is flying the same route as you are. Just poke them and go all.
"Sup, I hired a freelancer to fly through our route and keep the lanes clear. For you AND me. Wanna chip in?"
This benefits every trader, so this can be easily done.



Thirdly, introduce a new type of route. Same 15min long route. With a (clean)profit of 20 million per trip. Keep the buying price of all those goods just high enough that losing them would have a great impact on your pocket:

10 million to buy 5k, with a clean profit of 20mil credits.

However, if you are giving the dropoff sellpoint on Manhattan, add an alternative sellpoint on unlawful bases nearby to attract cargo pirates. Boom. This means that the player will encounter more pirates that would ask for cargo. In such a case, the RISK of being mugged is tied to the RISK of losing all that cargo you paid for in the first place. The 20mil profit will allow you to give even half to the escort. In other words, if you hire an escort, you pay him 50% of the profit but STILL make just as much money as you would do on a regular 10mil route for the same amount of time spent AND can deal with pirates AND give the person you are flying with a good income as if they were flying on their trader.

However, at the same time, if you are a greedy little shait and try to trade through that route without an escort to keep 100% of the profit, if you DO encounter a pirate, you can be 90% sure that they will be pirating you for at least ten million or all of your cargo, because it sells equally well on THEIR base. And if the guy is a Xeno...well, tough shiz.





As I tie this up, remember this. All of what is said above is perfectly biased. Those are my views, my suggestions and my experience. You have all right to disagree with it. But for the love of noms, do not be THAT guy, who says I am wrong and posts 20 times in the thread, ranting about the same thing as if in hope that they can somehow change my opinion on the subject. Point out flaws. Sure. Argue about it. Sure. Do not try and force your views or try and change mine.

Cheers.

---

--------------
PSA: If you have been having stutter/FPS lag on Disco where it does not run as smoothly as other games, please look at the fix here: https://discoverygc.com/forums/showthrea...pid2306502
----------

[sindroms]

A small note, when I say escorting, I mean scouting. Tho it changes nothing really, since you are still flying from point A to B. The actual details do not matter in my post.

---

--------------
PSA: If you have been having stutter/FPS lag on Disco where it does not run as smoothly as other games, please look at the fix here: https://discoverygc.com/forums/showthrea...pid2306502
----------

[nOmnomnOm]

I scanned this post.

And I must ask you this though. Whats the point of it?
I see where you are comming from that you want to make money from this escorting thing. But that can be decided amongst a group. And really its more of a RP thing whenever i did it and a way of finding pirates.
If the trader wants to reward you later if you managed to help him, so be it.

Also PS

"for the love of noms..."

>.>

---

[Lythrilux]

Yeah, as nOm said, it's for the RP usually.

---

[sindroms]

Well, that is sort of the point, ain't it? People build their arguments against others that if they want to share a save trading experience, they need to hire escorts. Unless we make escorting profitable for both sides, there are not really many escorts to hire, you know. Just the ones who do this for the RP.

RP is good, but again, if a person flies from point A to point B, at least my first reaction would be ":| I could be doing this in my transport right now and making money..."

---

--------------
PSA: If you have been having stutter/FPS lag on Disco where it does not run as smoothly as other games, please look at the fix here: https://discoverygc.com/forums/showthrea...pid2306502
----------

[Pavel]

I usually fly as a trader, rarely as an escort or pirate, I can confirm Spazzy's statements. My experiences prooved me more or less that's how it is.

Flying in larger groups and splitting payment for scouts* works the best here, IMG, Bowex, DHC...



* it's also true that you never hire "escort" . You can't defend convoy without losses in case you meet few guys in bombers or cruisers, you hire -scout- , who will warn traders to dock while there's still time for that, later local lawfuls will be alarmed via skype emergency channels, or traders will log their combat ships to deal with the enemy - again IMG comes to my mind as the best example of that.

[nOmnomnOm]

Yeah, as nOm said, it's for the RP usually.

Also another thing.

A bounty hunter gets how much again for a kill? like for a snub what? 2-5 million? Maybe 10 for a cap kill?
and an escort should get a lot more?

Lets weigh this up a bit shall we?
Shooing off some pirates and maybe getting a kill by really chance if the pirate decides its worth fighting OR getting a kill by actually finding them on your own.

Hmmmmm

---

[Agmen of Eladesor]

But there are ways to make it a bit better for both sides of the deal. The escort does not want to fly from point A to B thoughout mostly unpopulated systems for a messily sum they could be earning per minute on his trader. The trader does not want to pay the escort the same sum they would be paying the pirate IF they caught them.

I know you changed it to scouting - in my book, that's pretty much the same thing as escorting. That's how we trained in the BHG when we'd run escort missions - you're not there to actually fight off the enemy, you're there to scout ahead and tell the trader if there are problems.

And that points out the flaw in your argument, which others have also pointed out.

If you're planning on flying as an escort for someone - you're NOT doing it for the credits. We're not playing TraderLancer here, after all. Grinding out huge quantities of credits is all well and good - and you and I both have plenty of them stashed away, more than we'll really ever need, because we HAVE done that.

You're flying as an escort / scout because you want the RP. The "Hey, I have red on my scanners up here, better drop out of the trade lane and go around" as you warn the trader. And for giving the guy company while he's making trade runs - because solo trading is boring as hell.

Back in the grinding days, a couple of us used to make 4 - 6 trade runs a day along the same route. What we ended up doing was I'd run escort first, then he'd run escort, and we'd just switch back and forth. Kept us in RP, and kept us from going nuts. We'd talk about all sorts of stuff while trading and scouting - it was fun.

And that in and of itself is the major counter-argument to your whole post - trading with an escort doesn't HAVE to be profitable for the escort, it simply has to be fun. Did you enjoy the 15 minutes of time you spent going out into the boonies while talking to someone else? Was that worthwhile in and of itself?

Because when it's all said and done - if you're not playing this game simply to have fun first and foremost, you've lost sight of what play and playing is all about. (Trust me on that one - I play poker at a semi-pro level. I figure that when I enter a tournament for $100 real money, if I play for 2 hours and bust out, I've had fun and just paid a fee to play and have fun. Once you're into the third hour or so, then you switch to work mode and then I'm not there to play anymore - I'm there to take home some money - sometimes quite a bit of money. And since there IS no real money to be earned playing Disco - it's just all play, whether you're on 2 hours in a row or 20.)

---

Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[Zayne Carrick]

*reads the wall of spazzytext*
*reads other's comments*

Well, everything was said before me. The only activity you should do to get money is silent powertrade in CAU8 Stork. Maybe powerkill in anticap missions
Others are for RP/PvP. People are fulfilling bounty contracts not for money, they're doing it for PvP, maybe for some RP. Money are just little bonus.
People agreed to escort not because they need money, they want some RP with employer.
People are hiring escorts... well... I don't know for. Scout won't save you from clever pirate. And fool one won't kill you.
Perhaps for RP too.

[Oorn]

As long as economy is the way it is, hiring scouts would only be viable to ore traders. Everyone else is doing it for fun, practical good from them is minimal.

Only reasonable solution I can think of is to make cargo minimal price ALOT higher.
Like paying 30mil for cargo that will net you 20mil profit. Yes, with also buffing actual profit. And making escorts useful when transport actually meets pirate. IMO, pvp wise 1 escort should be able to stall 1 pirate, so trader has 100% chance to escape. With ANY level of pvp skill from them, and minimal time lost for trader. Have no idea how to do this game-mechanics wise though.

P.S. Nobody stops you from paying escort per trade route completed, so if pirate blows up trader, escort also gets nothing.
P.S.2: With such changes to prices, xenos will become litterally most hated faction in the universe, as they deserve irp.

---

When "roleplay" around you seems to be diminishing... all you can do is be a new beacon of roleplay to light up everyone else's interactions.