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On the other hand, those who come here and expect the "RP" in the server title to actually mean something, may just end up sorely disappointed the second they jump into New York, and leave.
Anyhow. If you're an unlawful in Liberty, embrace the fact that you're going to have to deal with fleets of capital ships and cap-botfeeding snubs on your own wherever you go. If this makes you tear your hair out, go elsewhere.
I've found playing a lawful far more frustrating. Not because unlawfuls are mean ganking sons of [female dog]s, but because half the time spent online consists of babysitting every single fight you get into.
"No, please, Dreadnought captains, I don't need you to pile on this lone Barghest when we already have a Guardian on its rear."
(01-20-2014, 04:12 PM)Omicega Wrote: I've also played extensively on both sides of the law in Liberty, and I have to disagree. Since time immemorial, any "unsportsmanship" etc has always been mostly on the part of lawfuls. There are of course exceptions to this rule - one-liner Pirate ID bombers and such - but the vast majority of "improper" behaviour has always been from lawfuls.
This is pretty much, as I see it, because an awful lot of newer/inexperienced players like to play as Liberty lawfuls, and also because there are simply many, many more Liberty lawfuls than Liberty unlawfuls. That's just how it goes.
While I don't think it's fair to expect a newer player to Disco to abide by "unwritten rules" and such, I don't think you can realistically claim that any "unfairness" is evenly distributed between both sides of the coin.
The problem is that many people consider it "proper" for unlawfuls to be unsportsmanlike, but "improper" for the lawfuls. They consider it ok for a group of 2 or 3 pirates to lolgank single traders or lawfuls, because after all they are the IRP bad guys, but when the lawful faction that should have the IRP largest power in the system does the same to unlawfuls, its bad because they should be the good guys. I guess that's because ass-hat RP is considered more ok for one side than for the other.
I think that the perspective of some people who claim to be the upholders of sportsmanship is seriously scewed.
To begin with, lets take an example from... well... sports. In sports, you don't have first league teams play against third league teams, and in the rare occasions that it does happens, it's a friendly match that is mutually agreed on by both sides, where the first league team will maybe accept a handicap, and will not gloat about the third league players lack of skill.
Here, it happens very commonly that a first league team composed solely of aces or very highly competent pilots absolutely obliterates a third league team composed of maybe one or two halfway competent pilots plus a bunch of beginners, and that this kind of "match" is forced on the third league team by threatening single members of their team, and the first league players' refusal to side with third leage players. And still, the first league players consider that sportsmanlike just because of numbers and ship classes, although their enemy had no chance to win at all because they arent in the same league.
Generally, the first league team will be flying snubs and maybe one or two turret-stearing turret-zooming Solaris gunboat. Not because they think its fairer to do so, not because they cant afford larger ships, but because they know that this combination will be the most effective for their style of fighting: targetting the most vulnerable ships as a group, avoiding fire and fleeing when needed, going to swap ships and refill, and playing victims if they do lose.
The third league team will be composed mainly of people who think that large ships will help them win. This belief comes from the fact that they have been destroyed very easily by first league players when they were still flying snubs, and with larger ships they manage to survive longer, mainly due to their lack of flying skills in snubs and lack of organization or friends to build teams of competent snub groups like their adversaries. There will be a few halfway competent fighters siding with them, which will cause some problems for the first league team, but the first league will just increase their own numbers enough to overcome those too.
The "matches" will more or less follow the same pattern:
First league team sends ships to third league teams common hangout places, which gloat about their lack of experience and choice of ships, and try to provoke them so they get attacked. When they dont get attacked, they attack the easiest target, and the present third league ships try to help their victim. First league starts complaining that they got exactly the reaction they wanted to provoke. More random third league players try to help their RP allies because it seems like the natural good-mannered IRP thing to do. The most obvious beginners get targetted first and fall like flies. First league gloats about everyone they kill. Some second league ships arrive and help the third league team, to help the beginners, or out of ambition to kill first leaguers, or because they know they will be the next target anyway once their allies are all dead. First league team complains and gloats more. After a lot of base hugging, ship swapping, botpassing, and complaining that the other side used the same tactics as oneself, first league players either win or withdraw with minimal losses because they chose the most dodgy ships. They then proceed to go on the forum to gloat about their adversaries deaths, the shipsizes they used, portraying themselves as the guardians of fair play, good manners, and sportsmanship, while telling everyone what horrible people their adversaries were.
(01-20-2014, 04:12 PM)Omicega Wrote: The main problem is the lack of direction being given to these newer players by their more experienced lawful counterparts, whether that be people not being around to guide them or, worse, people just not caring and even inciting questionable behaviour.
I wonder what direction you want the newer players to be pointed to.
Tell them to use equal numbers and ships against players who are 10 times as skilled? That would be pointing them to certain death.
Tell them to talk a lot even when members or their groups are already busy dying, when the "first league" guys have no problem instakilling any bystander to the battle that could be joining soon?
Or tell them that there is no way that they will ever win a fight, unless they train for 2 years and try to become friends with the aces here, most of which they have found to behave like total "IRP" ass-hats towards them?
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(01-20-2014, 12:03 PM)Mímir Wrote: The ganking and "unsportsmanship", the one liners and so on, are equal on both the pirate/merc side and the LNS side - so what if a couple of LNS'ers chase a few snubs, they are hardly going to get a kill anyways, and they are most likely doing it because they got ganked the day before by 3-4 bombers and a couple of Scyllas. They feel justified, just like the mercs and pirates who got jumped by 3-4 battleships the day before feel justified for their gank. Npnp.
What goes around comes around, people should stop whining about who did what in Liberty and just treat others how they want to be treated themselves. I for one like Liberty, something unexpected always happens there.
I basically wholeheartedly agree with this, in addition to what I said in my earlier post in this thread.
(01-20-2014, 05:36 PM)Spud Wrote: The problem is that many people consider it "proper" for unlawfuls to be unsportsmanlike, but "improper" for the lawfuls. They consider it ok for a group of 2 or 3 pirates to lolgank single traders or lawfuls, because after all they are the IRP bad guys, but when the lawful faction that should have the IRP largest power in the system does the same, its bad because they should be the good guys. I guess thats because ass-hat RP is considered more ok for one side than for hte other.
What's great about this explanation is that it doesn't matter which side of the lawful/unlawful spectrum 1st v. 3rd/2nd tier is, it applies universally. Granted, in NY it tends to fall that 1st tier are unlawfuls and 3rd/2nd are lawfults quite often, but it's great that the matter can be described without stating this specifically. It allows it to be applied anywhere else, Taus, Omicrons, Leeds/Magellan, etc.