I'm going to repost this...because this is actually a well-made rebuttal from Echo of all the problems Zoners seem to have with the idea of their Battleship/Colony ship being re designated as a Battletransport:
Quote:You are incorrect in stating that "gameplay cannot accurately reflect lore". Making that statement does not actually support your argument, and is in fact contradictory, since you should not be roleplaying the Nephilim as a Battleship anyway. (This would appear to be another instance of you misinterpreting and/or twisting my words to give you material to yell about.) It is more appropriate to say that gameplay is manipulated to portray lore to the closest approximation where possible. Sacrifices may have to be made for the sake of lore balance or gameplay balance depending on the situation.
Let me break this down a bit more simply.
Before:
The Nephilim is a battleship by game mechanics.
The Nephilim is a mobile colony ship by lore.
After:
The Nephilim is a (battle)transport by game mechanics.
The Nephilim is a mobile colony ship by lore.
As far as whether or not this change will be reconsidered; the Zoner leadership has not yet offered any substantial lore pertaining to their faction or ships which would justify them having semi-restricted or unrestricted quantities of these ships. Simply stating that your history and activity is dependent upon some very specific gameplay functions of these vessels is not a defense for their existence (or inappropriateness) in canonical lore.
Based on what I've heard...this is how I perceive the problem:
Zoners like to think of their Colony Ship as this:
And they are afraid that merely have the word "transport" attached to what they always perceived as the above, they are going to be flying this:
When the reality is...they should have ALL ALONG had something more akin to this:
Maybe we should just compromise and give them this:
Why don't we all stop posting about how crappy and unable to defend themselves the new ships are going to be until we actually see some stats, eh?
p.s. why is it we never hear this much whining and complaining about how unable to defend itself the Zoner Whale is, hmm?
(02-28-2014, 03:51 AM)Gytrash Wrote: ...
Act like a man. The consequences of your action are that the Zoners now have battlships...
You can’t retcon your actions in real life. Just because you have the power to do so here does not give you the right to do so. You are destroying what others have worked so hard to build up. And what gives you the right to do this?...
Boss hires you. New boss comes around, fires you. Why? Because he can. Because you looked wrong at him. Because you sleep with his wife. Whatever, fact is... he can.
Does he have the power to do so? For sure.
He might destroy your life? For sure.
What you can do? Right, nothing.
(02-28-2014, 05:25 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: Good luck making a significant change when you're busy alienating the development team instead of actually providing us with appropriate and relevant lore for the Zoners as a faction and their ships.
This is now my project for the weekend (albeit, when I should be doing something critical like exam-preparing) - drafting some sort of Rp sheet that I can hand to an official faction member, somewhere, in aid of decision reversal. Gee, thanks a bunch.
(02-28-2014, 01:56 PM)Divine Wrote:
(02-28-2014, 03:51 AM)Gytrash Wrote: ...
Act like a man. The consequences of your action are that the Zoners now have battlships...
You can’t retcon your actions in real life. Just because you have the power to do so here does not give you the right to do so. You are destroying what others have worked so hard to build up. And what gives you the right to do this?...
Boss hires you. New boss comes around, fires you. Why? Because he can. Because you looked wrong at him. Because you sleep with his wife. Whatever, fact is... he can.
Does he have the power to do so? For sure.
He might destroy your life? For sure.
What you can do? Right, nothing.
As you said, suck it up.
Gytrash (and I, in another thread) have argued against this point of view that you and Highland keep projecting, that we should just spread our legs and take it, regardless of relevant Rp continuity within the permissible constrains of the Discoverse.
Now, if you take a moment to incorporate lore reasoning into your priorities, instead of blanket stating that "everybody hates Zoners" (We're a good 30% of the community, by the way), you might aquire something:
The infrastructure, populace, technological accumen and general potency of the Zoners outweighs that of the Blood dragons, according to forumside and gameside data, yet the blood dragons are permitted a capital ship line.
Do you really wish to alienate this many Zoner players under this fashion? Nobody wants two sets of five K transports and some ridiculous Arbiter-scale monstrosity. Nobody desires a balance-breaking transport instead of some moderately balanced ships.
I have heard so many Neph and Aquillon pilots say in skype "You have a problem? Fine, just remove all the heavy turrets. All of them. We won't be able to fight anything that way, but we'll still be able to Rp the ship".
You hear that? Combat utility isn't even part of the discussion here, so cease with the dialogue deviation.
THE SYNDIC LEAGUES
(A co-operative of Rheinland's Shipping Unions, retired from a life of piracy.)
(02-28-2014, 07:45 AM)Gytrash Wrote: ...
The question that I have is this then. Is it such that no matter what we do the ships will be changed. Because we are gathering all that lore. It takes time. If the ships are going to be changed and that's the final word there's no reason to gather it at all.
The zoners did not offer any lore? But, echo, you saw that lore doc with the ideas yourself. No one can regurgitate a novel in one day but the zoners really wanted to fix the lore and they even showed you the ideas.
It is not their fault that whatever idea they bring is quickly discarded and no actual help with the lore was offered ( correct me if i am wrong here, all that chatter took place when i was asleep because timezones )
I've seen your draft document which was not conclusive, and you had not even decided on a general approach to take. I suggest you simplify and work from first principles, expanding on vanilla lore that incorporates the entirety of the Zoners, not just the small niches filled by the three current official factions.
How long have you had to get yourselves together? A year? Two years? Months? That has become immaterial. No one has the power to change the past. What matters is that you focus on the situation right now. You're under pressure. There's a time limit, and you don't know what it is. If you can spend hours finding various ways to tell various Developers that you think they're wrong or you disagree with their decisions, then you have time for more constructive activities as well.
All you know for certain is that if there is no substantial defense of Zoner capital ships, both in terms of lore and gameplay (despite the change itself being only a gameplay change and that you've apparently built player lore around that gameplay), then the ships will be converted. You might have better chance arguing for the case of them being part of a custom faction shipline as opposed to being open use... you might not.
Addendum: I'll give you a free tip. I'd like to see something in two weeks. You've got at least a month for something more developed. Beyond that, I am not offering any guarantees at this point time.
Addendum 2: Don't go re-writing vanilla lore entirely, that's not really going to cut it.
(02-28-2014, 07:45 AM)Gytrash Wrote: ...
The question that I have is this then. Is it such that no matter what we do the ships will be changed. Because we are gathering all that lore. It takes time. If the ships are going to be changed and that's the final word there's no reason to gather it at all.
The zoners did not offer any lore? But, echo, you saw that lore doc with the ideas yourself. No one can regurgitate a novel in one day but the zoners really wanted to fix the lore and they even showed you the ideas.
It is not their fault that whatever idea they bring is quickly discarded and no actual help with the lore was offered ( correct me if i am wrong here, all that chatter took place when i was asleep because timezones )
I've seen your draft document which was not conclusive, and you had not even decided on a general approach to take. I suggest you simplify and work from first principles, expanding on vanilla lore that incorporates the entirety of the Zoners, not just the small niches filled by the three current official factions.
How long have you had to get yourselves together? A year? Two years? Months? That has become immaterial. No one has the power to change the past. What matters is that you focus on the situation right now. You're under pressure. There's a time limit, and you don't know what it is. If you can spend hours finding various ways to tell various Developers that you think they're wrong or you disagree with their decisions, then you have time for more constructive activities as well.
All you know for certain is that if there is no substantial defense of Zoner capital ships, both in terms of lore and gameplay (despite the change itself being only a gameplay change and that you've apparently built player lore around that gameplay), then the ships will be converted. You might have better chance arguing for the case of them being part of a custom faction shipline as opposed to being open use... you might not.
Addendum: I'll give you a free tip. I'd like to see something in two weeks. You've got at least a month for something more developed. Beyond that, I am not offering any guarantees at this point time.
Addendum 2: Don't go re-writing vanilla lore entirely, that's not really going to cut it.
Oh, we'll do it, even if the chronological constraints are pointedly minimal.
THE SYNDIC LEAGUES
(A co-operative of Rheinland's Shipping Unions, retired from a life of piracy.)
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