Hey Disco, get a grip

[Tunicle]

that get processed on the same day, within the same hour, by the same admin, but how likely is that?

Highly likely.
Normally at least three admins look at a sanction before it is processed.
Once an admin has settled in for a little spell of sanction processing they are likely to look at a number at once. It is an onerous and time-consuming task not something easily dipped into. But when all the logs, tools etc. are opened it is usual to look at a number.
If you are the third or fourth admin and there in consensus you are then likely to then post up a couple at the same time on the forum. That is why it sometimes appears if one admin has gone sanction happy.

[Carlos De La Cruz]

This is my take on this...situation.
Those guys using LR equipment, shooting at LR. That's fine... once. Then word gets out. Higher ups (Officials) get involved. They don't like being shot at with their own equipment. That's understandable. So far the situation as it has unfolded is a logical extension of the RP.
Then it gets a bit OORP. Those guys don't want to relinquish thier LR diplomacy, even though the Rogue bosses are calling for their heads because they got some dudes shot with their own guns. Effectively, these guys are pirates (as in pirate ID) now, but they don't want the negative reputation their actions have given them. So they continue to "pretend" to be Rogues because tech, diplomacy etc.
When you break it down like this it is easy to see what is wrong here. Just face the facts - Rogues that shoot Rogues don't stay Rogues. You are Pirates now. Embrace it instead of fighting it and the whole thing will fly straight from here.

But as I see this, they're already hostile to Rogues. All GNG and G's are FR5'ed by official rogues. And I don't see any problem here.. How many times one gang member turnes against another? Even higher in hierarhy than himself? Just Because. It would be inRP wrong, if someone did the same thing with lawfulls... But with unlawfulls? Guys..what's wrong with you..Theese things happens in real life everyday: one guy attacks another from same gang, hooligan group etc. So why someone is bastilled for something that's inRP and within a logic right? Why so much hate for doing smthing that's common in criminal groups..?
They get FR5'ed as expected and that's should ended the whole thing..
As for Using different ID's for one group: where is rule that forbids that? If there is one, please show me, because i really tried to find it but i couldn't..
Third thing: I usually play agaist this group. And usually my thoughts are: "not again...not again them...why i must allways come across those guys when I log into Disco..ech. Ok. Lets do our duty. For Liberty!" And usually die (but not always) in such confrontation because they are really well organized in fight. But it doesn't matter: RP is RP. I really wish sometime I have interesting inRP chat with them instead of just shooting each other, but reality is that they are my enemies, and usually I must shoot them instead of talking. But this is how the Disco works..
And I really don't uderstand those anger against them..(even if I'm usually on the loosing side and should be upset because of it)

[Mímir]

Well, you know how me and a whole ton of others have always logged on the Liberty lawful (losing) side for, like, over half a year now?

Clearly you don't, or else you wouldn't suggest that that isn't the case.

Well, if players are distributed evenly, and you are undoubtedly the better PVP'ers, howcome you are on the losing side, as you say yourself? It doesn't really add up.

I never said EVERYONE logs the winning side, of course there are a lot of exceptions. But think about it, sometimes you will see 15+ RNC caps in Texas while there are 2 LNS'ers online, while the same RNC players also have Liberty caps they could log to ensure an even and balanced fight. Think about your GRN| and how there was pretty poor indie support (except for a brief migration of RNC players) until your fighter aces started winning fight after fight. The more succesful GRN| has been in PVP, the larger the indie fleet. It's not really rocket science, the same effect is documented in parliamentary elections. People like to win, even if it is winning by association.

@Admin conspiraceh: Ye ok, I worded that wrong. I didn't mean to imply admin foul play, what I meant to imply is that the FR5-submitter and sanction reporter might be the same person or affiliated, seeing that both reports were processed simultaneously and probably thus received and filed around the same time. The idea that FR5's are not a punishment and just a pure roleplay tool isn't entirely true, when people submit a FR5 request they quite often do it because they are annoyed or upset with a group or individual's actions - it's not just as a chilled roleplay response like writing a comms message. The FR5's are announced in the Sanction section, I think it would be naïve to maintain that FR5's are just a simple and neutral roleplay tool.

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[Thyrzul]

@Thyr:
I think fundamentally we agree but we look differently at the case at hand. I obviously agree that there are limitations, I just find it bothersome that official factions often makes it their chief duty to impose those limitations on other players that they might as well just leave alone. The desire for control is running wild, and it has always been the nature of discovery for those in a privileged position to resort to admin or sometimes even dev involvement to solve something that could and should be handled in roleplay. An insubordinate Rogue? Assassinate him, subject to his views or do something - don't deal with it oorply.

Official factions are granted officialdom because they spent a considerable amount of effort into fulfilling standards set for them to fulfill if they want to become official. I think it is a fair tradeoff that in exchange for dedication, they have a bit more say in how things go. And that's just the ooRP side of it, inRPly the only factions I could say for certain that they (should) have no hierarchy are Zoners (and the generic IDs, if we look at IDs). Then there are certain factions for which the possibility for multiple bosses is logical, like Rogue or Brigand gangs, or Corse families, and then there are the ones where authority is concentrated in one ladder of hierarchy, lawful factions and certain unlawful ones.

What you may experience isn't necessarily greed for power/control, more often than not it's just how the faction is designed, and if it allows you to challenge the internal authority, then it is up to you to decide how to do it and how many buds you want to bring with yourself, some ways may require more effort but will yield better results, some not, but at all times you are to face the consequences of your actions.

And an FR5 is an inRP consequence, admin involvement in the case of FR5s is not instead of roleplay, but to have roleplay done, finalized. Because you just can't assassinate the character of an other player without his/her consent, can you? The best you can do to make people deal with the consequences of their actions in this case is to get rid of them from your bases and shoot their face in space.

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[Lythrilux]

So after reading all the pages of this thread that developed whilst I was out, I've got a lot to say.

Alright listen up. Mimir, Tuta and anyone else trying to state "oh but the GNG ganksquads create good activity" let me tell you that you're wrong. Just because something creates activity doesn't mean it's good. Your argument is of the same branch of an individual saying "oh yeah wars are a good thing because they create jobs (soldiers etc.)" and completely ignoring the fact that in wars a lot of blood is spilled. Secondly, you as individuals do not solely get to decide if an activity is good or not. For example Mimir, I could say that a certain scrap pirate I have which you are well aware of could be good activity because I get a lot of angry Junkers getting their OC cap friends and their Nomad gunboat friends to come and kill me. As long as players log, it doesn't matter that I may be upsetting the player on the other side of the screen, because to hell what he thinks. It's my activity, and I may strongly believe that my activity is good regardless of context. Points to Jack and Mimir however for saying that they've played on the other side and have (surprisingly) stated that the activity is good. The players on the other side of the screen are the people who define activity as being good or bad. You fly your ship, you interact with someone. The person you interacted with is the person who critiques your interaction - a certain dev said that "Remember there's someone else on the other side of the screen" in her leaving post. Your opinion (the person making the interaction e.g GNG) in regards to that doesn't mean anything.

However! The opinions of the majority outweigh the opinions of the few. Jack, Mimir, you two may both argue that you think the activity is good but I'm quite sure there is a a clear majority of people in the community (both player and staff actually) who would be inclined to disagree with you and say that the activity GNG generates is bad activity. Like I said in my pirate ID thread, you only have to look in the majority of skype chats, the forums and the shoutbox to see that people really don't like what G and GNG do. We can sit here an argue all day that the activity they make is good but to make such an opinion would show massive ignorance of the opinions around the issuer of that statement.

I've already stated my opinions on the FR5 being justified elsewhere but if people want to challenge me on that bring it on.


In conclusion it is impossible to argue that the activity is good if you blatantly ignore the opinions of the majority - that the activity is actually bad. I'll also conclude with a statement which is quoted in Thyr's sig:
What kind of standards are we trying to set here?

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[Parthenogenesis]

When you're speaking of the majority here, you're speaking about the tiny minority of people who stayed, not taking into account the overwhelming majority of people who left. When activity starts to be a problem, you may want to think about those too.
I think the psychological experiment described in the link is pertinent to this discussion, because giving people authority over others is basically an online re-enactment of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

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User was banned for: K4RL0TTA
Time left: (Permanent)

[Mímir]

Look, Lyth, I never said that "any activity is good activity", stop putting words in my mouth. I already refuted that strawman a few posts ago.

"You as individuals do not solely get to decide if an activity is good or not" - how is this different for any player of either view? You seem convinced that what this group is doing is "bad activity", why can you solely decide that? You need to substantiate why this activity is "bad". As I said, I've flown with this group and been subjected to a whole lot of angry // PM's by players I've flown alongside with and done the very same things with the day before. It's easy to single out and demonize groups of players, and skype is an excellent vehicle for players to form opinions based on other players' opinions, rather than personal experiences and independent thought. So I ask you, what kind of standards are we trying to set here?

I am still asking for people to substantiate why this is "bad activity", and so far all people have been able to come up with has been "uhh, they use mismatched ID's and that is an offense and a big issue even though it has no effect on the actions, the roleplay and the outcome of the situation." You might as well add "I also heard on skype that they are bad people that club baby seals to death," which in turn is a pretty good reason as to why the majority isn't always right. People work themselves into a frenzy, the same thing happened to Team RUS/RNC, where everyone grabbed their pitchforks and talked about the final nail. Sure, everyone can sit down and agree, but it's rarely based on their own experiences, and that's why popular opinion in this community isn't worth all that much.

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[Lythrilux]

When you're speaking of the majority here, you're speaking about the tiny minority of people who stayed, not taking into account the overwhelming majority of people who left. When activity starts to be a problem, you may want to think about those too.
I think the psychological experiment described in the link is pertinent to this discussion, because giving people authority over others is basically an online re-enactment of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Honestly if we're going to start treating activity such as this as the acceptable norm we should really pull the plug on the mod. The hell is the point? This is meant to be an RP server, not mindless amusement simulator 2014 with fancy spaceships and the like where people are free to show a complete disregard for the other side of the encounter.
Also your point is stupid because it's irrelevant what the opinions are of those who have left because guess what? They left! They're not part of the mod or the community anymore, so they're definitely not around to interact with GNG and G, so what they think is irrelevant until they come back and are part of the community once again.
And honestly we don't need GNG or G or any of these lolwut pirate squads to make activity. In the grand scheme of things they contribute little and are actually more detrimental than anything. People are really fed up with the shenanigans these people pull and are very reluctant to fight them.

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[Lythrilux]

"You as individuals do not solely get to decide if an activity is good or not" - how is this different for any player of either view? You seem convinced that what this group is doing is "bad activity", why can you solely decide that? You need to substantiate why this activity is "bad".

I don't solely decide that. I never said I do. I give my opinion of it which just so happens to be an opinion shared by a lot of people.

As I said, I've flown with this group and been subjected to a whole lot of angry // PM's by players I've flown alongside with and done the very same things with the day before.

Exactly, I speak the truth.

It's easy to single out and demonize groups of players, and skype is an excellent vehicle for players to form opinions based on other players' opinions, rather than personal experiences and independent thought.

But they're really not opinions based on other opinions. Look at this thread, look on the community as a whole even. With your argument I could easily say that you don't have any personal experience and are also just forming an opinion based on other opinions, so lets not try to argue from that point of view.

So I ask you, what kind of standards are we trying to set here?

I dunno man, I'd actually like for us to be running an RP server personally though.

I am still asking for people to substantiate why this is "bad activity", and so far all people have been able to come up with has been "uhh, they use mismatched ID's and that is an offense and a big issue even though it has no effect on the actions, the roleplay and the outcome of the situation."

But it is a justifyable reason. Firstly, it's against the rules. Secondly, it's a lolwutty means to circumvent a restriction and to ooRPly increase the amount of technology a group has access to so that they can continue their 'reign of terror'.

You might as well add "I also heard on skype that they are bad people that club baby seals to death," which in turn is a pretty good reason as to why the majority isn't always right.

That's completely irrelevant. If there is a clear opinion that is clearly based on personal experiences then there is no way to argue around that. It's like me going "oh yeah ISIS is a good thing and although the majority of people think they're bad they make their opinions based upon other opinions..." see what I mean?

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[Sabru]

just as a basis, after reading 5 pages of this thread, i've found 2-3 things already.

1. Congratulations, this is like ZA level trollwuttery.

2. yeah, i smell people just wanting to troll around.

3. i'm guessing, from the sanctions, and Garrett's response in this thread that there is an almighty impending sanction wave heading for this troll group.

Post part 2:

This thread is where I go to identify the people I don't need to take seriously in the future.

+1 to this

I had an experience with this group's shenanigans during the colorado incident and it was very underwhelming. minimal RP just to get blues, interrupting ongoing RP that was happening. If you want to act like pirates, then ditch all the very questionable faction IDs and tech and go full pirate. just expect to be shot by just about everyone. dont troll around like you have been doing, which is why FR5 and sanctions.

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