.:j:. Junker Congress Faction Feedback

[|nfrared]

This community managed to kill the Congress. There's no need to spit on their grave.

Ummm... BS on this one. Maybe in some part, sure, but you can't blame everyone else for this mess. So here's the tough love feedback no one seems to be willing to tell you. Or were previously told but didn't listen.

It is easy to point at others and blame them for your plight. But sadly, going over the 39 pages of feedback the Junker position of it seems to be that there is very few indications of anyone, anywhere in the Congress being wrong or having made a mistake, ever. And that in fact it seems they actually believe all of their struggles are all everyone else's fault.

Take some responsibility for your situation (although the ship has probably sailed on this one as the culmination of this situation rests on many who have simply fled), and stop filling your feedback thread with bitter vet farewells and "hope the place burns" crap. If the faction is done with, bow out with some grace, state as much and request this thread be closed.

The community is a large group, and believe it or not some of them don't even know who .:j:. are. Is it their fault too? No.

[Dove]

I for one am very sad to see the congress die. There are several things which I think ar typical for the state of discovery that I blame for it.

1. Developers error's which were never corrected. Junkers should have been collecting junk in house debris fields and doing some shady semilegal things. They shouldnt have been building and maintaining multiple POBs far off of populated areas getting rich mining premium scrap (what the heck is that supposed to be, and how the hell did it get to an area far off of human activity) and jump trading it. That's just not what junkers should be able to do. I actually dont blame the junker congress players, or anyone else, for doing it. I blame the admins/devs for enabling them to do it, and not creating better alternatives for them (scrap mining near rochester or pitsbrug for example) and for keeping it that way for so long.

2. Groups of players who move from one group to the next (one day its zoners, then junkers, then LNS) and try to bully them off the server, or try to change people's behavior through attacking them systematically, telling themselves that they are doing some sort of positive social engineering of the server population with their bullying/systematic attacking. Systematically attacking someone has always been a bad way to "fix" problem, although it's been the standard for a lot of people, unfortuantely.

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[Lythrilux]

Junkers should have been collecting junk in house debris fields

getting rich mining premium scrap

One and the same. Premium Scrap is worthwhile salvage that can be sold to shipyards and the like to be re-used.

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[Dove]

Junkers should have been collecting junk in house debris fields

getting rich mining premium scrap

One and the same. Premium Scrap is worthwhile salvage that can be sold to shipyards and the like to be re-used.

My point is that collecting junk should be something for poor people. If it was something for rich people, house corporations would be doing it. The right balancing would have been to make junk collecting something good for noobs to do near high activity zones (kind of what helium mining is now), which becomes replaced by raw material mining once they can afford better gear. Richer players could still be able to use the junker status to make their money with shady business using junkerdom as cover.

If you were trying to make a point about something, would you elaborate?

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[Venkman]

I was thinking, would it be a good idea to replace the Helium field in Penny with let's Scrap or P-Scrap? The newbs there shuld be -newbs- i.e. poor, as Dove said... "hauling junk" - "scrap" should be for poor people - newbs.
I agree, "rich" players can also mine scrap and transport it, but if the scrap field is in Penny the newbs would haul it more and therefore the Junkers would be what they should - "Junkers" .

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Orex Armaments

[Lythrilux]

My point is that collecting junk should be something for poor people. If it was something for rich people, house corporations would be doing it.

House corporations indeed do it as well. See DSE or ALG.

The right balancing would have been to make junk collecting something good for noobs to do near high activity zones (kind of what helium mining is now), which becomes replaced by raw material mining once they can afford better gear. Richer players could still be able to use the junker status to make their money with shady business using junkerdom as cover.

I don't really see how this is needed though. The place for newbies is with generic IDs, not with faction IDs. Turning the Junkers into a newbie faction seems illogical. The ID itself is meant to represent another form of roleplay, that of the quasi-lawful, not an ID which serves as nothing but a gateway into other factions.

If you were trying to make a point about something, would you elaborate?

I'm saying that it's perfectly fine for Junkers to mine/salvage Premium Scrap and make a profit.

Furthermore I'll go on to say that the problem isn't Premium Scrap at all. Premium Scrap when mined normally is just about as beneficial/detrimental as any other 'ore' commodity. The problem here is that Congress jumped aggressively to the point where the whole commodity had to be nerfed and the rest of the Junker playerbase suffered as a result.

I was thinking, would it be a good idea to replace the Helium field in Penny with let's Scrap or P-Scrap? The newbs there would be -newbs- i.e. poor, as Dove said... "hauling junk" - "scrap" should be for poor people - newbs.
I agree, "rich" players can also mine scrap and transport it, but if the scrap field is in Penny the newbs would haul it more and therefore the Junkers would be what they should - "Junkers" .

The thing is Junkers aren't actually poor. They're a considerably rich faction that has a massive stake in the black market, underneath their legal activities (standard hauling, Salvaging etc.). If newer Junkers want mine scrap but have an easier time doing so, they can simply mine inside the field next to Beaumont Base and then sell it to the base once full. More lucrative endeavours of course have longer distances but also more lucrative sell points (shipyards). I don't really see how injecting the Junker NPC faction with newbies is really going to make them any more Junker than they are now, arguably they'd probably be less 'Junker' because the role-play standard in the faction would drop.

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[JunkerTown]

Furthermore I'll go on to say that the problem isn't Premium Scrap at all. Premium Scrap when mined normally is just about as beneficial/detrimental as any other 'ore' commodity. The problem here is that Congress jumped aggressively to the point where the whole commodity had to be nerfed and the rest of the Junker playerbase suffered as a result.

More fun facts for you Lyth...
Premium Scrap being buffed was only meant to be temporary lasting only three weeks.
It was the first commodity buffed based on my discussion with the admin to help increase activity.
I laid out my plan for our jump events involving premium scrap before ever doing it.
Admin responsible for the price hike was very aware of our scheduled events.
It was nerfed later on because it ran FAR longer than it was suppose to. (Your welcome for the delay btw)
What it was reduced to was also discussed fully before it was done.
SO you can blame me for both it being increased and decreased but not for the reason you listed.

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[Dove]

House corporations indeed do it as well. See DSE or ALG.

It's not DSE's primary source of income, and who says its logical for them to collect it. ALG isnt richer than the corporations whose trash they take out.

I don't really see how this is needed though. The place for newbies is with generic IDs, not with faction IDs. Turning the Junkers into a newbie faction seems illogical. The ID itself is meant to represent another form of roleplay, that of the quasi-lawful, not an ID which serves as nothing but a gateway into other factions.

The quasi-lawful status of the junkers will show newbs both sides of the law and of RP from early on. The original/default lawful rep of generic IDs makes them see unlawful players as "the enemy", motivating them to get the biggest baddest LN cap as soon as possible and take revenge and remove the players they learned to hate, before they get to know those players as potentual friends.

Players start out poor, and they will naturally behave like poor people. It's weirder for poor people to start mining helium than it is to start collecting junk.

I'm not talking about making it a noob-only faction. I'm just talking against making it a big-bucks-by-junk collecting faction, because big bucks are made by other ways than gathering what other people dont want.

The problem here is that Congress jumped aggressively to the point where the whole commodity had to be nerfed and the rest of the Junker playerbase suffered as a result.

What you allege is utterly illogical. If jump trading is a problem, it makes 0 sense to nerf any commodity because of it.

The thing is Junkers aren't actually poor. They're a considerably rich faction that has a massive stake in the black market, underneath their legal activities (standard hauling, Salvaging etc.). If newer Junkers want mine scrap but have an easier time doing so, they can simply mine inside the field next to Beaumont Base and then sell it to the base once full. More lucrative endeavours of course have longer distances but also more lucrative sell points (shipyards). I don't really see how injecting the Junker NPC faction with newbies is really going to make them any more Junker than they are now, arguably they'd probably be less 'Junker' because the role-play standard in the faction would drop.

Collecting what other people throw away will never make your richer than the people who throw it away. Sure they can get rich, but in other ways than collecting junk. Smuggling, buying and selling stolen goods, maybe using junk as cover.

The early-stage lucrative junk collecting should be for poor people near heavily populated places, so they interact with people before they get rich. The big bucks, if you choose to stay a junker, should come from black market, smugging, and so on.

To be honnest, you sound more like you're being driven by the longing for personal profit regardless of logic and RP, and by dislike towards another group who have had the part of the cake that you want for yourself.

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[Lythrilux]

More fun facts for you Lyth...
Premium Scrap being buffed was only meant to be temporary lasting only three weeks.
It was the first commodity buffed based on my discussion with the admin to help increase activity.
I laid out my plan for our jump events involving premium scrap before ever doing it.
Admin responsible for the price hike was very aware of our scheduled events.
It was nerfed later on because it ran FAR longer than it was suppose to. (Your welcome for the delay btw)
What it was reduced to was also discussed fully before it was done.
SO you can blame me for both it being increased and decreased but not for the reason you listed.

Yes, the Premium Scrap buff was indeed at first meant to be temporary, however as things went on the staff decided to keep it going for longer. The route itself proved beneficial for activity in the Borderworlds and to an extent Kusari (although less so as Yokohama hadn't got it's buff yet). Furthermore when calculated with profit/sec in terms of the large length of the route from Liberty all the way to Omicron Alpha, it was balanced compared to other ores. The only real issue with the route, aside from jump trading, was that Junkers did it in the salvager, and unfortunately the Salvager had insane survivability which made it difficult for players to intercept Junkers hauling Pscrap. This has now been fixed.

I'm not entirely sure if it'd be fair to state that you'd reccive all the credit for it being buffed in the first place, as other players/factions did ask for a Scrap commodity to be good again, but your input in that regard anyway is still good. In regards to your 'jump events', no one has ever seen them documented nor would anyone appreciate them outside of Congress I'd argue, simply because it's not really an interaction if a group of players are jumping back and forth between two systems. Jump Trading Pscrap threw the balance of the Pscrap route out the window and flooded credits into the economy whilst also killing interactions. The Congress were warned many times by the staff, this is fact, but they ignored them and jumped it regardless. Actions have consequences and sadly those consequences affected the whole route because of a minority (there were other Jump Traders too).

The changes were not discussed at all. I have no idea what happened but I recall an admin coming to me and saying that "concerns were raised within the Junker groups, DSE and ALG about the route...". I have absolutely no clue where this admin got her information from but neither me, Karst or Zed complained about the route being broken for Valetta. Karst did express complaints about the route, but only because ALG did not have decent sell points. The aforementioned factions even made a collective chat, with yourself in, to create a document and give it to the staff showing how the route was not broken. Interestingly it seems that only Congress were consulted about the routes balance, whilst other factions were ignored (even when working together collectively). Funnily enough post-nerf whilst the route was made useless for all the other factions (except ALG who had a nice gallic sell point which was nice) except those who'd be able to Jump Trade it - which is what Congress continued to do post-nerf. After it was nerfed a staff member approached me and told me about all the new prices. The Scrap team collectively pointed out how these new routes were terrible in terms of profit/sec (and that JM couldn't benefit from it at all because they were hostile to IMG, the only decent sell point at the time ). Thus the staff revised the new prices slightly but not to anything worthwhile. They ignored the fact that the previous sell points for Pscrap were balanced and pushed new calculated routes.

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It's not DSE's primary source of income, and who says its logical for them to collect it. ALG isnt richer than the corporations whose trash they take out.

It's not the primary source of income for DSE, but it is logical. In the wake of the Texas Incident, fields of scrap were scattered in the aftermath. Given DSE's involvement in the project as well as the areas they are involved in as a corporation, it would make sense for them to join up with the cleanup operation. Beyond that I don't think it would be too ridiculous for them to expand into the greater scrap salvaging business.
I didn't say ALG is richer than other corps, but they are certainly not poor. Premium Scrap salvaging is a lucrative business.

The quasi-lawful status of the junkers will show newbs both sides of the law and of RP from early on. The original/default lawful rep of generic IDs makes them see unlawful players as "the enemy", motivating them to get the biggest baddest LN cap as soon as possible and take revenge and remove the players they learned to hate, before they get to know those players as potentual friends.

They can simply use a Freelancer ID (another quasi-lawful ID) in that regard then, considering it actually has less rephacks than the Junker ID does.
Players start out poor, and they will naturally behave like poor people. It's weirder for poor people to start mining helium than it is to start collecting junk.

I'm not talking about making it a noob-only faction. I'm just talking against making it a big-bucks-by-junk collecting faction, because big bucks are made by other ways than gathering what other people dont want.

It's not just a big-bucks-by-junker faction though. Not only can you smuggle, but the ID also allows for piracy outside of sovereign house space as well as hunting Xenos and Hogosha everywhere. The salvaging business is meant to be a cover for the Junkers darker activities.

What you allege is utterly illogical. If jump trading is a problem, it makes 0 sense to nerf any commodity because of it.

I'm not saying it does make sense. It was the course of action they took however it was a completely retarded change and I still fail to understand why the staff nerfed the whole route instead of addressing the other problems which they did admit were bad for the route after the nerf (Salvager survivability and jump trading) and fixing them. Sadly the order of these changes was not executed in the best fashion, so whilst the problems with Pscrap are gone we're left with a pretty bad trade route that we're waiting to get fixed.

Collecting what other people throw away will never make your richer than the people who throw it away. Sure they can get rich, but in other ways than collecting junk. Smuggling, buying and selling stolen goods, maybe using junk as cover.

I don't think you read my post entirely correctly. By no means can they not profit from salvaging, however it' s not their main source of income. Junkers make their money through underworld activities (smuggling and piracy). Who says what people throw away won't still have high/reasonable demand elsewhere? As the saying goes, "another mans trash is another mans treasure".

The early-stage lucrative junk collecting should be for poor people near heavily populated places, so they interact with people before they get rich. The big bucks, if you choose to stay a junker, should come from black market, smugging, and so on.

The ore commodity itself should not be confined to a single demographic. Players of all wealth should have access to the commodity, and the more varied types of players you have taking part in the mining, the more interactions you get. I also don't think it'd be fair to lock it to newbies, who'd get creamed by Xenos or Hogosha lolengaging transports.
People would still actually smuggle with Pscrap. The route was that you'd take Pscrap to Alpha or Gamma, and then take Cardamine or Artifacts back depending on which faction you went to.

To be honnest, you sound more like you're being driven by the longing for personal profit regardless of logic and RP, and by dislike towards another group who have had the part of the cake that you want for yourself.

I've created and lead a Junker faction so I understand the lore and economics of Junkers. With that role I was also part of the NPC faction development, so I'd have knowledge of dev decisions or ideas regarding the Junkers. I don't really understand what you're trying to infer by saying I'm trying to impose my own personal thoughts and feelings or that I'd envy another groups actions as to how they gained profit. Lets be honest money making in Disco is an easy chore, I don't really care if some players make more money than I do, as long as their actions won't yield consequences for the greater majority.

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[Pinko]

Collecting what other people throw away will never make your richer than the people who throw it away.

As a sidenote as I was reading this, this statement is pretty inaccurate. The richest woman of Mexico (at least back in 2012, if memory serves well) is a lady who made a business out of recycling. Recycling is a ridiculously profitable business, any business where you don't need to use new ressources to create something new is always great business. One person's trash is another person's treasure, as they say. I don't know how rich the Junkers would be as a whole, since they are a ragtag organisations split into a few different branches, but some of them probably rival Corporations in wealth and ressources. Of course, that's probably not the situation of your average Junker.

To add to this, I never disliked the Congress. In fact, I think this is a pretty big loss for the server. They were an oddity for sure, but interaction with them was always amusing and/or profitable. Sure, they'd often end up shooting me whenever I'd meet them no matter what side I'd pick, but it was a bit of spice and life on the server. Conflict is good for the server, but drama is a shame. RIP Congress.