DiscoveryGC ID Overhaul - Official & Independent [Arioch's Proposal]

[Evo]

For Xeno ID.. Dunno why you thought it'd be nice to add credit piracy, never been allowed to do that and we don't really believe in it.

Also, can do with removing the mention of IND from the LH ID as we haven't been around for quite a while now.

---

[Foxglove]

Well, since this has been made visible again, I guess we can give our comments. All in all, I do believe that you have sort of missed the point of making IDs easier and because of this, I believe that it would not address the problem of people misunderstanding what they are allowed to do. Please consider the following for a moment.

The way you have structured IDs in your rework follows the pattern of positively defining (-can do X) and negatively defining (-cannot do Y) what a player with a particular ID is allowed to do within the game. I posit that, by both positively and negatively defining what a person is allowed to do, you are not just needlessly restrictive, but also not taking the easiest route you could take in streamlining IDs. What I would propose is either negatively defining what a person cannot do, thus in principal allowing them to do everything unless the ID forbids it, or positively saying what a person can do, thus in principal forbidding the player to do anything unless the ID allows him to. This would look somewhat like this:

Examples

(1) Example for negatively defining what a player can do

Liberty Navy ID

Pilot carrying this lawful ID is a member of the Liberty Navy, who:

-cannot engage anyone who is considered lawful by the House of Liberty.
-cannot demand credits or cargo unless levying a fine or confiscating contraband.
-cannot use transports with 3600 cargo or greater.

Zone of Influence: Liberty, systems directly bordering Liberty, Leeds, Newcastle, Manchester, New London, Dundee

Allowed ships: Fighters, Freighters, Transports, Gunboats, Cruisers, Battleships

(2) Example for positively defining what a player can do

Liberty Navy ID

Pilot carrying this lawful ID is a member of the Liberty Navy, who:

Can engage and destroy any ships within Alaska, Ellesmere or the Zone-21 Minefield that do not belong to either the LSF or Liberty Navy.
Can demand contraband and levy fines within their Zone of Influence, and attack if ships refuse to comply.
Can attack ships which are in violation of Liberty laws or belong to a house or organisation considered hostile by Liberty within their Zone of Influence.
Can defend allied or neutral lawful ships and bases within their Zone of Influence.
Can escort traders within their Zone of Influence.

Zone of Influence: Liberty, systems directly bordering Liberty, Leeds, Newcastle, Manchester, New London, Dundee

Allowed ships: Fighters, Freighters, Transports, Gunboats, Cruisers, Battleships

This would be the way of making IDs as simple as possible. In (1), the principle is that everyone can do everything unless the ID prohibits it, and in (2), you are not allowed to do anything unless you are permitted to by the ID.

---

Secondly, I really need to object to you touching Official Faction IDs. Reading through some of the comments posted here already, you clearly are not familiar enough to be restructuring these, as you also add restrictions that are seemingly arbitrary and have not been there before, for good reason. As the leader of the Nomad Vagrants, I cannot agree with your version of our ID. Let me highlight what I mean.

Vagrant ID

Current Vagrant ID

Pilot carrying this unlawful ID is a member of the Nomad Vagrants, who:

- Can freely engage all ships within their Zone of Influence.
- Can assist other Nomads and Wild both within and outside their Zone of Influence.
- Can freely engage ships with Jump Drives and Survey Modules both within and outside of their Zone of Influence.
- Can freely engage any Core or Order ships both within and outside of their Zone of Influence.
- Can treat Transports as combat targets.
- Cannot demand credits or cargo.
- Cannot dock anywhere except for Nomad and Wild bases.

Zone of Influence: Omicrons, Omegas, Taus, Sigmas, Independent Worlds, systems containing Wild or Nomad bases.

Allowed ships: All Nomad ships.

Vagrant ID as proposed in the OP

Pilot carrying this unlawful ID is a member of the Nomad Vagrants, who:

Is allowed to do the following anywhere:
- Can escort transports.
- Can attack any ship [or bases] in self-defense, to protect a Nomad or Wild ship, or in defense of a Wild base.
- Can attack bases and ships belonging to The Order, The Core or carrying Jump Drives and Survey Modules.

Is allowed to do the following within their Zone of Influence:
- Can attack any ships or bases.

Is not allowed to do the following:
- Cannot trade or smuggle.
- Cannot demand credits or cargo.
- Cannot dock anywhere except on Nomad and Wild bases.
- Cannot ally with anyone except Wild, Oracles and Commune.

Zone of Influence: Omicrons, Omegas, Sigmas, Taus, Independent systems, systems containing Nomad or Wild bases
Allowed ships: Nomad Fighters, Nomad Gunboat, Nomad Cruiser, Nomad Battleship

Firstly, I really don't see how you made the ID easier to understand with that. Secondly, you also arbitrarily tried to add restrictions (shown in spoiler above in red) into our ID that were not there previously, and for good reason. The Vagrants are not diplomatically tied to the Oracles where we would consider them worthy of allying with. We also would be unable to further individual roleplay with mere Freelancers for example, because they are not part of the Oracles, the Commune, or the Wild. It would be best to allow official faction leaders to decide themselves how their IDs are worded, as they know best what is good for the factions they lead.

---

In conclusion, I do not like the proposed changes. They do not streamline. They in fact make it more difficult to read IDs.

---

[Freeport7]

Regarding this line in freelancer ID:

-Can attack any ship in self-defense or to protect a ship or base of the same affiliation.

I think it's a bit confusing. By reading it I get the idea I can only protect ships with the same affiliation as me (other freelancers only)
My suggestion would be to keep the word "allies"

[Lafayette]

Considering many people think this is a definite update. It is not. It is a proposal I didn't even check myself yet.

YES. Skorak in fact had only reviewed Harmony Id proposal.

My two cents:

This is better than when the Staff did it because it's impartial and simply an attempt at restructuring IDs without randomly taking and adding things to them. I.e last time they gave the BHG ID ZoI and took Omegas from The Core ID. So you get my applause.

Thank you!

Although some IDs are missing things (like HF and Vespucci and I'm assuming that's an oversight rather than you making a creative decision).[/s] Welp might be wrong about that, but I feel like it's not deliberate.

It was removed because it was redundant. And I removed lots of reduntant information. Kansas is in Liberty and it is one system away from Vespucci.

One last thing: Core indie and Official ID is allowed to ally with unlawfuls/enemies. It's one of the perks of being lawful evil. On another note, I also put in a request to revamp the ID a while back so that may affect this, so perhaps it'd be wise to delist the ID from here until I hear back from the Staff.

I was hesitant into adding it because lawful IDs generally have zero, or a small number of unlawful IDs with which they can ally with. I made the changes however.

Unless you can reduce the number of words required to express the allowances and disallowances of the IDs, all of these "id reworks" can be written off as worse than what we already have. This is exactly that.

/thread

Size can be fixed by playing with font sizes. Reducing words without regard to actual content makes things more murky and confusing.

Right now almost every lawful ID says: "Cannot engage in unlawful acts.." and smuggling is an unlawful act. But it is allowed by the rules, which most people don't know.

When we start to drop comments here already:

(...)

Fixed the mistakes there. GC indie ID does not have access to Sigma-59 where you have a base there. That was retained. Also, you can send me a correct version of your description to add in the proposal.

For Xeno ID.. Dunno why you thought it'd be nice to add credit piracy, never been allowed to do that and we don't really believe in it.

Also, can do with removing the mention of IND from the LH ID as we haven't been around for quite a while now.

An empty Samura transport should still pay its tolls. Why not keep your options open in case the pilot wishes to donate heavily for his life? As for the second, I'll await further feedback.

[Chronicron]

So, about the Nomad Indie ID. I don't really see any reasons in adding an ability for it to escort a transport, for there is rarely any Friendly-to-Noms transports in an Indie Nomad ZoI. On the other hand, I would consider adding an ability for an indie nom to leave the ZoI if it's smaller than a gunboat. It might encourage the indies to play as noms, to learn the way of the Nom and rise up the quantity of interactions between humans and nomads in general.

---

This is a feature as most Discovery players would not receive a response from women.

[Evo]

For Xeno ID.. Dunno why you thought it'd be nice to add credit piracy, never been allowed to do that and we don't really believe in it.

Also, can do with removing the mention of IND from the LH ID as we haven't been around for quite a while now.

An empty Samura transport should still pay its tolls. As for the second, I'll await further feedback.

I.. What? Do you know nothing about Xenos? An empty Samura transport would be dead, same as a full one. The only situation credit piracy would MAYBE be a thing is Libertonian corporations shipping into/out of Liberty.

---

[Lafayette]

Firstly, I really don't see how you made the ID easier to understand with that. Secondly, you also arbitrarily tried to add restrictions (shown in spoiler above in red) into our ID that were not there previously, and for good reason. The Vagrants are not diplomatically tied to the Oracles where we would consider them worthy of allying with. We also would be unable to further individual roleplay with mere Freelancers for example, because they are not part of the Oracles, the Commune, or the Wild. It would be best to allow official faction leaders to decide themselves how their IDs are worded, as they know best what is good for the factions they lead.

Firstly, I took up where @Arioch stopped working. Secondly, like him I am seeking out official faction leader feedback like you are providing now (see next paragraph). Regarding your proposal I will check it later.

You can roleplay with Freelancers, why you cannot do it with this now? As for the Oracles, they have been removed.

Regarding this line in freelancer ID:

-Can attack any ship in self-defense or to protect a ship or base of the same affiliation.

I think it's a bit confusing. By reading it I get the idea I can only protect ships with the same affiliation as me (other freelancers only)
My suggestion would be to keep the word "allies"

"Allies" is actually confusing and creates too many loopholes. How would you classify allies to a freelancer? He can be everyone and no one.

[Lafayette]

I.. What? Do you know nothing about Xenos? An empty Samura transport would be dead, same as a full one. The only situation credit piracy would MAYBE be a thing is Libertonian corporations shipping into/out of Liberty.

So an empty DSE transport, being interested in donating to the Xenos in exchange for his life... but you don't have the ability to accept his proposal. Why not have it and decide to accept or refuse him?

So, about the Nomad Indie ID. I don't really see any reasons in adding an ability for it to escort a transport, for there is rarely any Friendly-to-Noms transports in an Indie Nomad ZoI. On the other hand, I would consider adding an ability for an indie nom to leave the ZoI if it's smaller than a gunboat. It might encourage the indies to play as noms, to learn the way of the Nom and rise up the quantity of interactions between humans and nomads in general.

Escorting a Wild transport. Very rare but it should not be against the rules.

[Thexare]

Your overhaul includes the Researcher ID, but I don't think that actually exists anymore. In the event that it does, it mentions the Corvo Cruiser, but the Corvo's now a gunboat.

[Foxglove]

Firstly, I really don't see how you made the ID easier to understand with that. Secondly, you also arbitrarily tried to add restrictions (shown in spoiler above in red) into our ID that were not there previously, and for good reason. The Vagrants are not diplomatically tied to the Oracles where we would consider them worthy of allying with. We also would be unable to further individual roleplay with mere Freelancers for example, because they are not part of the Oracles, the Commune, or the Wild. It would be best to allow official faction leaders to decide themselves how their IDs are worded, as they know best what is good for the factions they lead.

Firstly, I took up where @Arioch stopped working. Secondly, like him I am seeking out official faction leader feedback like you are providing now (see next paragraph). Regarding your proposal I will check it later.

You can roleplay with Freelancers, why you cannot do it with this now? As for the Oracles, they have been removed.

Yes, we can roleplay with them, but not ally by the way you put it. The following would be a 1:1 translation of the current ID into your new format. I stand by what I said. This is not easier for people. Also, please replace the Vagrant ID in the OP with the one I provide here.

Pilot carrying this unlawful ID is a member of the Nomad Vagrants, who:

Is allowed to do the following anywhere:
- Can escort transports.
- Can ally with anyone.
- Can attack any ships or bases in self-defense, to assist a Nomad or Wild ship, or in defense of a Nomad or Wild base.
- Can attack bases and ships belonging to The Order, The Core or ships carrying Jump Drives or Survey Modules.

Is allowed to do the following within their Zone of Influence:
- Can attack any ships or bases.

Is not allowed to do the following:
- Cannot demand credits or cargo.
- Cannot dock anywhere except on Nomad and Wild bases.

Zone of Influence: Omicrons, Omegas, Taus, Sigmas, Independent Worlds, systems containing Wild or Nomad bases
Allowed ships: Any Nomad ship

---