Right.

[tfmachad]

Puck, as much as I relate with and respect your feelings, let me be honest with you.

I'm sick of all the political nonsense. All the drivel that pervades this server, the backstabbing, the idiocy, the nonsense, the OORP.
...
I would love to help this server further, as an admin or a mod, but I know due to the politics involved that it is unlikely to happen, so I will remain as I am, and hopefully become a neutral voice people actually listen to.
...

Whenever you have three or more people (though I'd say two are enough already ) involved in anything, you have politics of some sort to some extent.

From wiki:

Politics is the process by which groups of people make decisions. The term is generally applied to behavior within civil governments, but politics has been observed in all human group interactions, including corporate, academic, and religious institutions.

Politics consists of "social relations involving authority or power" and refers to the regulation of a political unit, and to the methods and tactics used to formulate and apply policy.

The Discovery community took a game that was originally intended to be a space shooter; one with a simple underlying story that depicted a space adventurer with no strong ties or obligations and little political agenda (a freelancer) to anyone; and molded it into something it isn't really capable of being by its original platform or engine. Even if the game Freelancer had intentions of becoming an RPG platform, it either failed miserably or the game was released before the mechanisms which could support that role were fully implemented.

In the original Freelancer story, Trent could go and dock anywhere, bribe people how he pleased, buy whatever ship he felt like and equip it like he pleased. That was the universe depicted by the campaign. Because he had no ties with anyone. This game serves the purpose of creating a reasonable self controlling environment for anyone to play as a freelancer just fine.

The problem here is that we are struggling to use this platform to an end it wasn't intended or wasn't successfully constructed to. We are playing more than just freelancers, we are playing the roles of the NPCs as well.

Time and again people say, "We play Freelancer, not Factionlancer". I disagree with this statement. Of course, it is used with a different intent in "that old endless discussion" I dare not name here, but its still wrong. Alright, we don't play "Playerfactionlancer", but we sure also don't play "Freelancer". What we are trying to play here is "NPCFactionslancer" then. To make it worse (as far as the platform we use is concerned) we are struggling to add "sense" into the our game, that is completely alien to the original platform. Which, as such, is also not supported by it.

So, what we have is a platform that allows anyone (ANYONE) to buy any ship, any weapon, dock wherever they manage to according to rules defined that have nothing to do with the role of the character. The platform was made to regulate the activities of a factionless (NPC faction) loner, who would likely be forgotten as soon as he was out of scanner's range.

Now, we are (ab)using this platform to serve a role it's not (by far) capable of accomplishing. We are molesting it by adding reputation standards, acceptable ships, equipment, areas of action, behavior, all that according to each character's role. All things verifications that aren't supported and can't be controlled by the engine. Then we needed to add rules, rules that are easily broken because the platform isn't there to check on them, there's no automated monitor that will verify if that Outcast is flying a Titan, because as far as the game is concerned, we are all just a bunch of freelancers. That's why the RM NPCs attack me just the same if I fire a CD around them while fighting to remove a threat from New Berlin.

Well, rules...

Politics consists of "social relations involving authority or power"...

...we need to enforce these alien-to-game rules we've created somehow and we can't rely on the platform to do that for us.

We have admins, but admins aren't like computer programs that can be "instructed" to mindlessly and tirelessly check on everything. We can use players as sensors then (after all, they are the ones which the rules were meant to support in providing a sensible environment and are likely to accuse should they be broken). But see, all of these are "people" elements. People are fallible and corruptible.

To make it even worst, we have different kinds of players here. We have role playing fundamentalists, to whom reasonable and consistent ambiance (according to their particular understanding of what that means in a given universe concept) and suspension of disbelief are important, and we have "gamers" (for the lack of a better description), to whom only the rules defined by the platform will ever be meaningful and important.

Given the very name of the server, one could naturally say that the first group has precedence around here and I'd go as far as saying that I agree with that, but...

Members of the first group hardly ever come around with a consensus regarding one subject. This happens because in fact we don't really have two very distinct groups, we actually have people that are more inclined to one side or the other. We don't really have RPers vs. Gamers here. Also, even amongst people who share a good deal of ideas, it may still be hard to come to terms with a definite decision that pleases everyone. Moreover, for many people the server's overall population number is important. Many people are here because Disco today is the most populated server around in a time where the game is dying. That brings two issues: Some Disco players may feel that people (and concepts) migrating from other servers shouldn't be ignored and shunt away, some feel otherwise; people from outside feel that even though Disco's rules and ways aren't really their "cup of tea", the fact that it perhaps is the single, more consistently played server still in activity makes them ignore that completely.

Fact is, we have all sorts of mentalities here (I'd even say that some are incompatible [RPer vs Gamer]), but it seems no one is going away anytime soon. To live together reasonably, people end up having to come up with compromises. One problem in Disco right now is that some compromises can't be made or won't be made because in the end this is still supposed to be an "role playing" server, unless we give up on that. I think it's worse with older players that lived free from this and now feel threatened by this giant wave. We have a tough equation in our hands and I'm not even sure if its solvable.

No wonder "politics" is surfacing A LOT lately. Groups (this goes beyond player factions please) are putting pressure to conflicting issues...

Politics consists of "social relations involving authority or power"[1] and refers to the regulation of a political unit, [2] and to the methods and tactics used to formulate and apply policy.

People are trying their best to make Disco what they believe it should be.

Make no mistake. The only way one will ever be free from politics is in isolating themselves from everyone else. Unfortunately politics have a big role whenever there's conflict, and we have quite a few right now.

Also, Puck, I told you I'd be honest. Your deed, this thread, in this particular forum... This is a political statement of its own, even if you don't realize it. You're an old, respected member in this community and by doing this you're saying something, you're applying force to convince people that something is wrong. You want changes and you're doing that what you think is within your power to have it. Otherwise, man, you wouldn't even have went through the trouble of deleting your characters, you wouldn't have tried cause stir by posting this in the (probably) more frequented subforum in the forums, and you sure as hell wouldn't stick around to see it. Again, I re-instate, I'm not suggesting that you did this all in a Machiavellic (sorry, it's a word in Portuguese) way.

Anyway, my take is that it really doesn't help, Puck. Or helps little. Use this leverage otherwise and be constructive about it. I can relate to feeling disgruntled, but then be help and build, don't throw your hands to the skies and say, "This is all ****, I'm taking no part on this anymore".

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Meet the Kriegers - The story of a family and of two men that shared more than just a name
Fantasmas de la Nube Siniestra
I Mon'Star: The Strange Case of Elizabeth Wallace

[bluntpencil2001]

Gronath wins the thread and beats my link to 'Relax (Don't Do It)'.

EDIT: The word in English would be 'Machiavellian'. Exact same meaning, I think.;)

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[Unseelie]

Gronath Wins.
Signed. and...
Oh my god, that was brilliant, and more openly said than I've ever been able to say it.
I am a political creature, and I enjoy the politics. Its why I'm still here, to be honest. I've a few things I want disco to be more like, but the best part of disco is the politics, for me. I think its beautiful, because things do change, things are accomplished...and I'm sorry to admit that I scoffed at you earlier, when you said you were tired of it. I assumed you thought you were losing.

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[bluntpencil2001]

Still, I must backpedal a bit and reiterate...

Frankie had a point.

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[old.steel]

Gronath Wins.
Signed. and...
Oh my god, that was brilliant, and more openly said than I've ever been able to say it.
I am a political creature, and I enjoy the politics. Its why I'm still here, to be honest. I've a few things I want disco to be more like, but the best part of disco is the politics, for me. I think its beautiful, because things do change, things are accomplished...and I'm sorry to admit that I scoffed at you earlier, when you said you were tired of it. I assumed you thought you were losing.

*pooop*
you need some new shoes or else...

you bubs call yourself instead of thinking about the topic.

kiwi the kraut get you some

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[Reverend Del]

Ummm Old Steel, there was no sense in that statement at all. Try again.

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Saint Del is considered a holy healer of diseases of children, but also as a protector of cattle.

[Epholl]

1001st post, Goronath. And a really good one.

As to Puck: I believe I understand what you feel. I have the same temptation myself.

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[onca]

That's it, Puck, go indie for a while.... like me. Freelancer, if you will. Good to do without the pressures and stress of being part of a faction for a spell.

As for the idiots and PVP ho's and pwnz0rs, as Blunt and Saddam says...... "Relax, guy! Don't worry about it. Put your feet up. Look over there ----->"

[beander2]

Well said, Gronath, as usual. I would only add the following:

Politics isn't just about power relations or control; it is not as though we're taking people as they are and simply negotiating their relations together around a common activity.

Political communities, however defined, are formative - in some way, shape, or form, they actually change the people who participate in them. Even in a setting some consider "just a game" (and I think it is more than that), people are transformed for good or ill. Perhaps they are affected only a bit, perhaps significantly.

The point is that we can choose our politics; it is indeed foolish to blame the very presence of politics in a community of this size, but it is just as foolish to assume that only one type of politics is possible, or that we have no recourse to flexibility or creativity in how we structure the community. This is why we take Gateway so seriously, for instance; it's an opportunity to try to model (however imperfectly) a certain way of doing community, which to some extent has an effect on how our members are formed as people.

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Sir Alisdair Buchanan, KBE ~ Gateway)Trafalgar

[Jihadjoe]

I still think you rock!

In real life I fire people, fine others and put the right ones into authority.

Unfortunately this is just a game so I am powerless to help you...

I would like to shareb these thoughts with the admins/forum readers though:

Why do we not have a strong pro rules presence ingame?
Having Admins without other forms of authority is very frustrating for those who celebrate the RP nature of this server.
Should faction leaders (official) not have certain authority? They have certainly shown that they care for the spirit of this server! (the majority of them anyway).
Does it matter that so many 'old trees' are leaving? ...not becuase they tire of the game but because they tire of the nonsense caused by those who blatantly show contempt for the spirit of this community.

It is not enough to merely see mostly Caylith single handedly punishing a few transgressors, to keep this community healthy we will need much more than the lone figure of an Admin or two with smoking guns... we need power on the hands of the right people!

Who are the right people? Those who care. You can spot them from a mile off.

Anyhoo... just some thoughts, either way I love this community and view it as a retreat from my hectic life, I would hate to see it go down in...er...flames... (scuse the pun)

long live the cabbage!

/signed mate.

Who those 'right people' are however still mystifies (wow, I've used that word twice in two posts now!) me. Power here should be shared but only with the people who cherish roleplay and are not pushy about getting their own way. Strength yes, but pig headed stubborness, no.

Puck. Its such a shame to see you duck out of this. I don't have a huge amount of contact with you or you characters (as far as I know) but I like what you say and the things you post for the most part.

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