DarkOddity,Aug 16 2006, 04:54 PM Wrote:How many players were present turing your testing? 2 or more players present + that amount of NPC ships engaging a player character battleship and an already high server load (which is a good thing, because it means we are popular, which we are) Try testing again during peak hours. That's when I experienced the above mentioned.
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Peak hours = 16 plus players, and that's when those with buggy versions are on, man.
THAT is the problem, the buggy version of Discovery creating client-side lag and the server tries to compensate for this.
I was trying it when i had 10 players on.
Why are you so damn sure it's the thrusters??? Evidence on the server suggests this is not the case.. I have 100% full physical access to the server. When the server appears to lag, so does my internet connection. if it was just the thrusters on NPCs, the server would *NOT* lag.. at all.
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DarkOddity,Aug 16 2006, 11:28 AM Wrote:I am 1,000% sure that the thrusters are helping cause lag. Let me explain further.
Thrusting causes lag due to the fact that when the AI continues to rapidly do it in extremely random patterns (Completely unlike player behaviour, which is much more conservative) the server has to try to compensate by sending out to every player in that system these jumps in distance and changes in direction. This causes lag because they are not constants. For example, if the NPC ship is moving within its minimum and max speeds that the game understands perfectly, there is no issue. However when you add a strange item that the AI is not equipped to handle (Capital ships) the AI responds to them in the forementioned way. This causes extra lag on the server, making latency worse.
I noticed this because every time I am in a fight with the AI (fighters specificly) and there is another person in the system, the server begins to lag once the fighters begin their "Thrust" compensation because they don't understand the dimensions of the ship I am in and the fact that I am sitting still.
You just killed your own arugement.
Freelancer Server does *NOT* work in this fashion. 99.9% of the CPU processor work is done client-side. They stopped making the game servers do it all a long time ago. Only time the server lags is when you have 20 plus people in the *SAME* System.
When you have multiple AI's shooting at you, and you see lag, it's almost ENTIRELY LAG on the client side. Never the server, otherwise EVERYONE would experience the same lag.
Rule of thumb:
1) IF you can see lag, and others can't, it's client side.
2) If you see lag and everyone else has lag too, it's server and/or everyone's connection
3) If no one sees lag, and it's just you, you're delusional (just kidding).
FLServer only provides *UPDATES* to the clients, making sure everyone's syncronized. Otherwise, the clients do all the hard work. If it worked the way you described, the bandwith would break 50GB per week, and we're slowly creeping up to 1GB right now (I started monitoring about 3 days ago.. trying to see how much bandwith is used per month).
Battlefield 2 Servers are more bandwith-intensive cause the servers provide:
1) Map
2) Kill ratios
3) Scoring system
and 4) Client updates
Freelancer only provides:
1) Updates
2) Syncronizing
The client does the rest of the work.
The netcode has nothing to do with this. Unless you've figured out how to convert the Freelancer DLLs into their original source code (Which BTW is very illegal in the United States) I don't buy this.
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I never claimed to decrypt the source code or any of that good stuff. Also you are neglecting the fact that I have mentioned it happens when multiple people are in the same system, which as you said, means the server is updating all those clients with the same information thus meaning the NPC actions are no longer client side and are taking up the bandwith. Also it is a much different experience in freelancer when you are on/in the same structure as the server PC.
Anyways like I said earlier, it is just an idea to add a toggle (which means each server can make a choice on using it or not) and I'm sure it would be a relatively simple task to add.
As for your comments on my knowledge about the Source Code, I am purely stating what I know based on observations compared to netcode problems in other games and netcode problems in this game.
DarkOddity,Aug 16 2006, 08:15 PM Wrote:I never claimed to decrypt the source code or any of that good stuff. Also you are neglecting the fact that I have mentioned it happens when multiple people are in the same system, which as you said, means the server is updating all those clients with the same information thus meaning the NPC actions are no longer client side and are taking up the bandwith. Also it is a much different experience in freelancer when you are on/in the same structure as the server PC.
TO CLARIFY THE PROBLEM.. THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE BANDWITH.. THE PROBLEM IS SERVER LOAD. IF THE BANDWITH WERE THE PROBLEM, ALL MY COMPUTERS ON MY HOME NETWORK WOULD SHOW LAG JUST ACCESSING A SIMPLE WEBSITE AND THUS FAR, MY ROUTER HAS NOT REPORTED SUCH A PROBLEM.
Oh, man.. you really missed the point.
The NPC actions are done client side. 100% client side. If the lag is caused by NPCs, it's client-only.. the server doesn't do anything in regards to that except tell the clients these need updating, and that's pretty low-bandwith.
The problem with the server is something is QUERYING the server itself too much. So much that it's creating the lag.
It has to be something client-side creating this issue. Otherwise, if it were something as simple as 10 players in the same system all fighting the 50-some molly buzzers... Everyone on the server would suffer the same problem all the time.
So.. that leaves the problem to three possible things:
1) Someone has a buggy version of Discovery installed (either by buggy deactivation or whatever
2) The Server has a bug in it (OS or otherwise)
3) the problem resides in the hardware. RAM, Processor, who knows.
Again, it's not the NPCs.. we never changed ANYTHING about the NPCs, except made them a little more intelligent. If the NPC thruster thing was the issue, we'd have seen this on the old server VERY EASILY.
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I agree with Wolfpack98 most of the lag is due to the users computer, I have experienced this first hand.
I have experienced some lag during playing and the other players beside me experience nothing. When I checked my internet contactions they were running fine what I came to was that after running diagnostcs on the computer the system was all bogged down and my CPU usage. Now before you say anyithing the computer was not running any other programs, just freelancer.
Another instance of this expample is when I fly into a heavy gas cloud like the one in Newcastle, the masive geometrics of the gas cloud over load my computer.
The reason for this is that the Discovery Mod is a massive mod, though not as big as some I have played, and requires allot of the clients computer. again as Wolfpack98 said the mod is mostly run client side and demands very little of the actual server. mostly the server just serves as a link to link the mylutiple client's computers togeather so that you can see each other virtually.
One way that you can limit the lag is to reduce the processed geometry in your effects section of your options menu.
The NPC actions are done client side. 100% client side. If the lag is caused by NPCs, it's client-only.. the server doesn't do anything in regards to that except tell the clients these need updating, and that's pretty low-bandwith.
^Wolfpack
Like you mentioned earlier, and like I said several times. The lag from the NPC thruster movement happens with multiple people in the same system. You validated this point yourself by saying in an earlier post something along the lines of "The server keeps the clients synchornized"
And as for my PC and my net connection being the lag; I can guarantee you this is not the issue. I am able (and actually HAVE done this) to run 4 instances of Freelancer modded (all with the Evolutions mod at that point in time) with no problems what so ever WHILE playing Star Wars Galaxies (RPG, and probrably about 10x more resource intensive than Freelancer with it's most intense modification.) running character macros to level up in that game while I enjoy myself in freelancer, managing multiple accounts (Including hot swapping between users on my pc to do so, in order to have multiple instances of FL running)
I am quite simply saying, which has been completely ignored:
THE THRUSTER USAGE OF NPC'S IS AN ISSUE WITH MULTIPLE PLAYERS IN THE SYSTEM.
All I am asking is for the modders to atleast consider adding the option in the future. It's not a demand, and apparently by the extremely aggressive arguments back at my opinion and feedback about this, feedback is not welcome.
The only reason this is even a problem is because the NPC's in this mod use their thrusters atleast 50% more than Vanilla or any other mod (that I have played)
I have absolutely no problems when I am in a system alone.
Also: If it is a "bugged" version of the mod, wouldn't that say one/some of the patrons are illegaly modding? Unless their download was corrupted or thay are purposely using a wrong version of the mod (Which FL.exe wouldn't allow due to version # differences) I don't see how that could be the issue.
Anyways I'm kinda upset that my feedback and ideas were met with such hostility. All I was doing was Putting in my input and ideas. It was not a personal attack on the mod, or the mod designer(s), which is apparently how it was taken, along with my other input in the other thread.
NPC Thruster usage is 100% client side. The Server's load will *NOT* increase off this. This has been tested.. REPEATEDLY over the past few weeks.
And since you want to brag about running multiple instances of freelancer, we all have done that. Freelancer is CLient-side only. the server doesn't do ANYTHING but update people. If the server load was going haywire, it'd be something OUTSIDE Of the mod's parameters, such as mis-matched configuration files, buggy connection, or buggy activation of the mod on the client side.
If the lag were server propgating to all users, TRUST ME I WOULD SEE THIS FIRS THAND BEFORE ANYONE ELSE EVER SAW IT!
Why?
Really simple.
The router that provides me with this lovely Near-T1 speed access to the internet is sitting not three feet from me. The Freelancer Server that is housing the DIscovery 24/7 Freelancer Server is sitting a foot away. ALL.. ON.. THE.. SAME.. NETWORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I run routine packet sniffing to find any hacks, or bad packets on my network. I have seen absolutely *NONE*.
The thruster issue being the source is not the problem. If it had been, we'd have seen it on the older box which had, by far more problems than this.
Get off the thruster thing. You're not proving ANYTHING. Each individual will have different results, especially since none of us have the same hardware. I can tell you with 100% absolute certainity (especially since I know a hell of a lot more about the server itself than anyone on this forum.. I built the damn thing) that it's server-side specific, and it's being caused by something that is well outside of the mod's parameters.
So lets not go down this road ok? I'll fix it when I get to it.
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Okay. i've been getting a little P.O'd today. I apologize for that.
Yes, I've had a bad day. Yes, i've been feeling like crap all day.
That's no excuse.
However, I seriously don't like people who are telling me the problem is something that does not match the evidence I see on the server itself. If the problem were something as simple as a NPC thruster.. why in the blue hell would the server's lag hit over 5000msec in less than 10 minutes? That is completely improbable. That sounds more like a insane CPU usage requirement, and NPC thruster requirements use zip. And that' is 100% client side.
When talking about lag.. there are two types of lag.
Network and Processor.
network is the actual data transfer from computer to computer. I am seeing absolutely *NONE* here. If there were, my router would shut the server offline and lock it off till the link became more stable.
now.. Processor lag.. which for everyone's information is the *REAL* problem here, is caused server-side. It has almost nothing to do with the mod itself. This is nothing more than a theory, but if we someone using more than just speedmod on the server, that'll create a problem. The other way is that if we have an buggy OS that doesn't like the number of users logging in. (This is my best guess right now, as seeing Windows Adv. Server isn't handling things too well).
Third possible problem is the hardware isn't working. Again, to test all this out, the server has to go offline for a period of time. I don't want to do this, but I will have to.
As far as this problem goes, It's related to the server only.. not the mod ok? The mod is perfectly fine, unless Igiss put some "bomb" code in there to screw my box up, which I seriously doubt is the problem.
Now, can we let this topic die so I can work on it? Thank you.
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I'm sorry to say that, but both of you are partially wrong.
Wolfpack is wrong in the part when he says about 100% clientside - thrusters are not 100% clientside, and NPCs handling is not, even if you are all alone. NPCs are processed by client, it's true, but information is still being sent to/from client. Even if you are fighting all alone. This isn't easy to notice if you have a fast network, cause processing this info won't require much serverside work. But if the network is not so fast, you might easily get connection lag.
DarkOddity is also right about thrusters influencing server speed when several players are in one place, one system. Yes, thrusting info is being sent to/from server, and yes, it does load server. Question is - how?
As you might know, the fastest servers are vanilla. Larger mod = more lags. It's inevitable truth: each new feature, each new item adds a little bit of lag, and each error, both reported and unreported, generates even more lag. Errors that flserver does not report are nearly impossible to track, cause I'll never know that they exist. Simple, eh? However, each of these errors would take up CPU power, and each will increase FLServer memory usage. CPU will complete its job, but memory will not free itself (this is why Win2003 might be preferable - better memory management). And this is why we are getting 100, 140, 180 Mb of memory eaten by FLServer after some hours of active play. Each new player logging in/out will add to memory usage -> cause of 16+ player lag should now be obvious. It is not thrusters, and not even related to actual gameplay.
Almost everything about the mod that could be done to reduce lag: was already done. Almost.
However, if someone will activate Discovery and then activate some other mods on top, this could easily cause server errors and increase lag.
As for normal NPC/pvp fighting, it's normal... will cause lag if it's massive, but it won't cause progressive memory-related lag like errors.
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