Jump hole "abuse" is not against the rules

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My last post on this subject. I would like to see a previous post of a sacntion on this rule, so I know where I stand in future,... If there is one ?. If any one can find it please post a link.

[Akumabito]

My last post on this subject. I would like to see a previous post of a sacntion on this rule, so I know where I stand in future,... If there is one ?. If any one can find it please post a link.

Just search the sanctions thread for "jumphole". I found one, but it hardly matters as there is no way for a person to know a rule is in effect unless it is in the rules, the info when you join here says "read the rules", it doesn't say "read through years of sanction threads".

If this is a tactic that is to be against the rules, put it in the rules first, then sanction people.

[Vero]

Scenario:
A player who has read and actually memorized all the rules as they are written is playing on the server. He happens to be a trader and hes going along his chosen trade route. Suddenly there are pirates calling for him to halt. He sees a chance to escape (JH) and uses it. The pirates follow. The trader comes out of jump only to find that the pirates exit jump right behind him. He has little to no chance of activating cruise in time to escape. He knows he can not use F1 to escape because he read that specifically in the rules. There seems to be no option but to fight a futile battle for his life or surrender and hope for mercy. But wait the JH is just meters away and there is a chance of catching the pirates off guard. There is no rule against it (he knows because he read them all) so he does it.
The scenario repeats until the trader gets away or the pirates destroy him. All the time the trader believes he is playing by the rules.
Next time he logs in however 700 million credits are missing and he has a sanction notice in his hold.

I have to agree with Akumabitos point here that a player in this scenario should be warned before a sanction of this magnitude is handed down.

If this is going to be a sanctionable offence then it needs to be added to the server rules, otherwise how is this player supposed to know hes doing wrong? Is every player supposed to read the rules AND read through every past sanction report to find the unwritten rules?

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I think both sides of this argument have been presented now. Im closing this thread and having a discussion with the rest of the Admin team on this topic.

Vero

[Xoria]

there is no way for a person to know a rule is in effect unless it is in the rules, the info when you join here says "read the rules", it doesn't say "read through years of sanction threads".
If this is a tactic that is to be against the rules, put it in the rules first, then sanction people.

In a word, No.

It is utterly impossible, completely impractical, and totally INSANE, to list every possible permutation of out of roleplay, disruptive, abusive, or otherwise "illegal" behavior that a player could commit while on the server.

Specifically, there is no comprehensive list of the words that a player is prohibited from using in the chat system on the server, but players are sanctioned for using words that fall into a category of "swearing" or "insulting". How? Because human beings are gifted with the ability to think. The server rules provide broad general principles, with specific and LIMITED examples, that give players the ability to think through the behaviors that are prohibited, encouraged, or allowed on the server.

No amount of specificity can replace someone's refusal or inability to think.

A comprehensive list would be so long that 1. No one would read it, 2. No one would remember everything on it, 3. No one would understand it any better than what we have currently because they either don't read it or don't remember it, and 4. It would therefore be even less effective than what we have currently.
If anything, the rules need to be shortened considerably, not made even longer by the inclusion of ever possible disruptive behavior that someone might commit and then claim to be legitimate because "it wasn't in the rules".

To illustrate, if someone on the server called you a pathetic excuse for a malfeasant, dictatorial nincumpoop with a fratricidal tendency towards bunny castration" he might very well get sanctioned for it, but its not explicitly in the rules either...just count yourself lucky that it doesn't have to be, and think.

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[Vero]

As evidenced by someone posting after I locked the thread: I see that apparently not everyone was given sufficient time to make their case.
With that in mind I will unlock this thread so that others without the ability to post in a locked thread will have their opportunity to voice opinions.

[Akumabito]

In a word, No.

It is utterly impossible, completely impractical, and totally INSANE, to list every possible permutation of out of roleplay, disruptive, abusive, or otherwise "illegal" behavior that a player could commit while on the server.

Actually it is very possible. If you look at the sanctions you have leveled against people, almost all of them are already covered by the rules, and you list the rule you believe they broke in the sanction.

Unlike the jump hole ping ponging, where you didn't list a rule because none was broken.

I went back 50 of your posts in sanctions, and the one on the ping ponging was the only one that didn't list a rule that I saw, so despite your claim that it is INSANE to try to include everything you are sanctioning people for in the rules if they are not already there, right now it would take only a single line for the bulk of your sanctions, and I bet that's true for most others sanctions as well.

If done with a general rule cleanup it could (and likely would) result in shorter, easier to understand and more complete rules quite easily, a benefit to everyone who actually wants to follow the rules as well as those that want to identify rulebreakers, player and admin alike.

Specifically, there is no comprehensive list of the words that a player is prohibited from using in the chat system on the server

And there doesn't need to be.

Read the rules on prohibited language:

3.1 Using coarse language, posting abusive, hateful, racist content in chat, public or private, is prohibited under any circumstances.

Sanction: no less than 7-day ban.

3.2 Flaming, threats and insulting (in any form) other members, factions, server administrators in chat, public or private, is prohibited on server and on forums. RP-related threats are allowed on the server.

Now you see, you don't need to list every word to have a simple, effective rule, just like you wouldn't have to list every jumphole or every number past a maximum for jump hole ping ponging if it was actually against the rules. Your example and argument from the claim that you would have to provide a list of words that are course, abusive, racist, etc... is specious.

Back to the real point, if jump hole ping ponging, a tactic that some think is OK and fits in with the other exploits you allow and some don't, is to be an actual sanctionable action like F1 in combat, then it should be listed in the rules just like F1 is. That's just common sense and common courtesy to those you are seeking to sanction.

Doing so doesn't really impact the length of the rules to a great degree, but it does make the sanction for it fair because it makes for a rule that was broken instead of a rule that wasn't broken because it doesn't exist but that you personally think should be a sanction so you are going to sanction anyway.

Again I have to reiterate what I think is fair. If you are going to sanction someone, do it for a rule they actually broke, not for a nonexistent rule. If you are going to attempt to make a rule against ping ponging, then warn people who are reported for it not to do it again or face a double sanction until you can add a few brief words to the rules like:

5.11 Repeatedly docking with the same jump hole to avoid a pursuer is sanctionable.

That's not INSANE, as you called it, it's just good administration.

No amount of specificity can replace someone's refusal or inability to think.

I think anyone who thinks can see that people can differ on their opinion on the validity of any questionable tactic. In fact several discussions on whether a tactic should be allowed or not have been carried out here with thoughtful points on both sides, like cruise to catch up to achieve 420k in combat, bat and bot trading in combat, whether fleeing includes afterburning out of gun range or just cruise, etc...

It surprises me that you imply having a different opinion than you do on this issue equals a refusal or inability to think. A reasonable person could read the rules and come away with the impression that jump hole ping ponging is a valid tactic, even after he thought about it.

I would expect a better class of argument from an admin than insults against someones intelligence.

[Doom]

Jump hole "abuse" is not against the rules, Ping Ponging

another advocate for finding holes in rules..great...

i don't even want to lose time on reading whole thread, it simply isn't worth it...

[Generation]

It is stated in single player that the Jump Holes are unstable, Orillion himself tells you that the Osiris has to leave the system because the Jump Holes was destablising. They regularly go on about "phase alignment", what should realy happen is that the Jump Holes regularly become unusable for a short period of time (maybe every 5 minutes) but I doubt this is posible. SO taking all this in to account, would any one in there right mind repeataly go through a jump hole.

Its all about the Role Play, would you repeataly abuse a spacial annomily that you knew very little about?

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[Akumabito]

another advocate for finding holes in rules..great...

i don't even want to lose time on reading whole thread, it simply isn't worth it...

Or holes in no rule in this case.

The point is simple, admins should not be sanctioning people who don't break the rules, no matter their personal bias against a certain tactic.

[Akumabito]

It is stated in single player that the Jump Holes are unstable, Orillion himself tells you that the Osiris has to leave the system because the Jump Holes was destablising. They regularly go on about "phase alignment", what should realy happen is that the Jump Holes regularly become unusable for a short period of time (maybe every 5 minutes) but I doubt this is posible. SO taking all this in to account, would any one in there right mind repeataly go through a jump hole.

Its all about the Role Play, would you repeataly abuse a spacial annomily that you knew very little about?

In RP, yes, simply because my characters, like many others have had great success using JH's, so the fear that they are unstable is not that great.

To draw a real life parallel, for years I rode a motorbike without a helmet, even knowing the danger was greater, and if there wasn't a helmet law where I live now I would continue to do so because the slightly increased risk is not enough of a concern to worry me. Likewise the risk of a jump hole collapse is small, and when you weigh the risk chances are if it does collapse it will give warning first, like it did in SP.

If JH's could be made unstable it would increase ping ponging because a frieghter could try to slip through just before it collapsed to trap the pirate on the other side. It would aid getaways.