' Wrote:I didnt say it was "ridiculous vs bomber/fighters" which you quoted despite that not being said (unless someone else said that). I said it was a little bit stupid, as in, not really ideal to fight something GB sized. Requiring near ram to hit often with a SN, something Blodo pointed out as being annoying in a Bret bomber, ending up ramming the destroyer because if the appauling turning on the challenger, apart from that you just need a CD obviously. I didnt overstate it as an issue, its not that bad, I was just looking for a comment on the kusari destroyer to remain on topic.
The thing on the Bret gunboat becoming a destroyer, that was entirely from a RP point of view, the forward gun is unique to the bret gunboat (the giant cannon, not the fact its a forward gun), comparing it to the kusari forward gun is like comparing a truck mounted machine gun to a tank's cannon. It's a bit confusing, apparantly the Bretonian destroyer is vanila, but it wasnt included? (probably due to the strange look, unwanted model) I just see the bret gunboat being the bretonian Liberty cruiser, sort of a cool unique ship, DA didnt do things very linear.
the Bret gunboat comes across as a cruiser like ship, entirely unique from other gunboats, yet it cant exist in the gunboat category in disco without seeming out of place.
I take the issue as unlikely to be changed anyway, and I'm not looking for an uber ship, forgetting all balance I just wanted it to make more sense as a ship.
Again, I coulndn't agree more with this. Let's not use price as an argument, shall we? Br Gunboat is huge, it's easier to SNAC than 1/2 of cruisers in mod. For that size, it doesn't have enought power, it doesn't have enough armor and it doesn't have sufficient shielding.
Then there's problem with gunboats' role as such. All gunboats are supposed to be anti-fighter/anti-bomber vessels...
...but just look at the Br Gunboat, it doesn't look like anything like that. It was definetely intended to be big a Cap-crusher. I think, perhaps, transforming it into destroyer is the right thing to do. Give it a try.
The second problem occurs when you compare the Kusari Dessie to the Rheinland Gunboat. It turns nearly at nearly the same rate.
Again why? The manueverability gap between a destroyer and a gunboat should be HUUUUUGE.
The hatchet dessie used to be even more ownage with double flak turrets in 4.83... I myself in no small part am responsible for their nerf xD
Anyway, Imo - that destroyer is fine. A specialized, offensive weapon. 9 turrets forward, hardly anything to use in turret//thrust AA mode. Bombers should handle that easily.
I dont think the thread is much about how strong it is, I have said that its not overpowered, its annoying for big bombers but doable, the thread is about the size, it's just tiny. Its smaller than some gunboats, to contrast the Bret gunboat was brought up. Which would be a so so destroyer, but is a meh gunboat, profeciency against other gunboats doesnt really save it overall.
I am overall pleased with 4,85 balance in regard to it, it used to be almost as highly stat'd as the bret destroyer, and much more agile. I do however think the Bretonian gunboat aught to be rethought.
If it's about the size, then I have to point to Digital Anvil again.
Both Kusari Dessie and Bretonian Gunboat are vanilla, resizing any of them is problematic due to textures and maybe even hitboxes/components.
So apart from "it doesn't seem right" what's the problem with the size?
If it's a balance problem there are many things that could be changed/adressed. If balance is fine then there's no need to possibly break the vanilla model by trying some resizing. The thread was started by people getting blasting by my Kusari Dessie implying it's unbalanced.
We did some fights yesterday with Derkylos that didn't show much... apart from the pilot being unbalanced.
Kusari GB size is just fine, about same size as Rogue GB, same armor, same powerplant, 99% same turning. 4 guns forward and a forward gun vs 6 guns forward.
Bret GB is big yes, but it is fully capable to defeat any GB in game 1vs1 without big problems and fully capable to kill any bomber 1vs1 as well. It also works well for <strike>pirating</strike> privateering.
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
i remember having issues with shooting at the Kusari Dessie. when aiming at the crosshairs of the ship, with both of us flying toward each other....no E-Kill) there were many times that my cannon fire shot away from the ship causing me to miss. not sure what that was about, lag perhaps? thought it was worth mentioning.
' Wrote:Bret GB is big yes, but it is fully capable to defeat any GB in game 1vs1 without big problems and fully capable to kill any bomber 1vs1 as well. It also works well for <strike>pirating</strike> privateering.
Agreed!
My only problem with it is that it doesn't look like it is designed to do this. The giant forward gun looks like an artillery piece to own cruisers and battleships with... it doesn't look like it should be able to take on other bombers and gunboats.
But, when it comes to actual balance, as opposed to what it is used for, I can't complain.
' Wrote:If it's about the size, then I have to point to Digital Anvil again.
Both Kusari Dessie and Bretonian Gunboat are vanilla, resizing any of them is problematic due to textures and maybe even hitboxes/components.
So apart from "it doesn't seem right" what's the problem with the size?
If it's a balance problem there are many things that could be changed/adressed. If balance is fine then there's no need to possibly break the vanilla model by trying some resizing. The thread was started by people getting blasting by my Kusari Dessie implying it's unbalanced.
We did some fights yesterday with Derkylos that didn't show much... apart from the pilot being unbalanced.
Kusari GB size is just fine, about same size as Rogue GB, same armor, same powerplant, 99% same turning. 4 guns forward and a forward gun vs 6 guns forward.
Bret GB is big yes, but it is fully capable to defeat any GB in game 1vs1 without big problems and fully capable to kill any bomber 1vs1 as well. It also works well for <strike>pirating</strike> privateering.
Now that gunboats have anti-fighter purpose, it is a problem with common sense rather than balance.
In term of manueverability, the gap between the slowest and the fastest cruiser is much, much, much bigger than the gap between the fastest gunboat and the slowest cruiser, it's tiny to none in fact.
The reason why there are classes is because each class should give you certain advantages, either firepower or agility. Kusari Dessie feels like a Rheinland Gunboat on steroids, it has it all and Rheinland Gunboat itself can hardly outturn LB Cruiser.
Also, in some other cases there's very little agility difference (almost impossible to be spotted by a human) between some Light and Heavy Fighters. HFs' pack a lot more firepower.
These gaps between classes should be widened, made more noticeable and perceivable.
Try to fly Kusari destoyer yourself, and youll find out, that it almost cant shoot backwards. I my opinion its very big minus which balances its size advatage.
While I kinda agree with the fact that they're too small, they're too small in vanilla, so most likely will never be changed. Despite the fact that the Kusari Dessie is smaller than the Bretonian Gunboat.
This particular issue has been discussed... A lot, in the past. Someone brings it up every few months. Some battles can't be won, and I think this is one of them. Best to let it fall to the wayside and focus on more important issues.
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