The way you are

[chovynz]

Ok now that things are calmer in the thread, I'll re-iterate.
I think Joe brings up some good points.
However, I strongly disagree that you have to have fair-play all the time.

I still believe that there is a time for Ganking, Just as there is a time for "pulling out" because of too many numbers.
"Ganking" is a legitimate tactic in many games and in RL, it's called "overwhelming force".
Sometimes you send in the armies.
Sometimes you send in surgical strike teams.

I admire Joe, and some other "leaders" for leading the way in pulling out
when they see things are too much for the other side.

But I still stand on the point that you cannot always have things "fair". To expect "fairness", in every situation,
is to set yourself up for disappointment, disillusionment and discouragement. That is not an excuse for
"to each his own", but an acknowledgement that "fair" in this type of Roleplay does not exist.

As "fair" as it gets is everyone following the server rules. Beyond that, are you as an admin going to make more rules about not ganking? Because that is not a realistic view of how things are.

Also, another congruent point to "fairness", is that many people who "gank" will not read this.
They simply do not come on the forums.

Perceived "ganking" can come about through gang tactics, through "unlawful" teamwork. THOSE types of ganking should be encouraged. I fear that you, Joe, are concentrating on one type of "bad" ganking only, at the expense of "good" ganking.

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Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.

[schlurbi]

I just had something Similar Yesterday.
CR against the Outcasts.

When i arrived in my Cruiser there were a few OC fighters/Bombers and CRs no capships then. Well i started to attack the base, and the BS was only watching until the first CR battleship arrived. I and the BS started attacking it and almost killed it until the OC BS suddenly died. And i got killed in my Cruiser by about 2 Battleships and a few more Caps. I was laughing though, because i died so quickly. But still, kinda unfair to get that what you didnt do before.

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"Who is it doing this synthetic type of alpha beta psychedelic funkin'?"

[Todd]

That was rather odd. Perhaps to continue your rather strange card metaphor, the person in question has put every last shred of effort, time, willingness, whatever, available to her in order to do something she beleives in here. Perhaps your comment is vaguely offensive. Maybe you just don't know. Maybe you should look first and comment later. You have no idea of what that indivual has done. Now... 'all-in'... some people have already done that.

~joe

True Joe but i'm not going to apologize

We all have our judge eh? The person in question wasn't that her but the comment that was implicated, remember everything is perceived differently with different people. If you wish to have me expound sirs, and Ma'am

I perceived her comment to being a "Preachin to the choir, waste of time,"
I just don't like to anything that finalizing a retreat. Or to give up statement and thats what that is. You me, her them and the "others," cannot ignore anything while in this real world injustice rules.

Here in our small little world we can institute a level of fairness. But we give up in the real world, we do it every single day SO I DARE NOT TO SEE PEOPLE GIVE UP ON THIS SOMETHING SO SMALL TO HISTORY. Do you want to know what I believe would be fair in this world? To be fair to everyone on this planet people don't give up on anything. Never to pass over a small concern.

Now i'm breaking character but most times i understand that members here don't understand a word I say but that is how I design my way of getting some to take notice.


This topic of Overwhelming a target to be unfair or at least not fun for the "victim," is just a personal choice for everyone involved.

Are you going to kick the dirt and cry?

Or are you going to move on to play again?


meh fine i'll apologize...


edit: a quick btw the statement of "All-in" was referring to combat in FL

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[bluntpencil2001]

I love fighting against the odds. It's great. Winning against the odds is brilliant. Hell, losing, but escaping with your life is great fun!

I also love distracting folk, dragging them away from a fight, so that my friends can outnumber and gun down their mates.

In short; bring it on. All that I'm going to lose is a fighter made up of pixels. And even then, it isn't set in stone.

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[Primus Avatar]

I didn't have the patience to read all of this, so I'll just respond to the original post.

I find this thread pointless, if you dont like getting ganked go play on a PVP server.
Personally, I consider "getting ganked" as an ego boost. That might be 'cause I used
to be a Harvester, pirate, civilian terrorist etc... I find "fairplay" a bit illogical in our
roleplay. I have fun just the same whether I win or lose, gank or get ganked, and chivalry
is sorta oorp when fighting liberty marines or pirates.

I can see BAF and KNF obeying this "honor code" but for most of the other factions it just makes
little to no sense.

We are not roleplaying a tournament, we don't organize "arena games" between opposing forces.
We're rolplaying serious factions with selfish motives, and i personally love the way most people
display it.


The problem I see is that people jump into those big fights without actually roleplaying... but that's
another problem which you didn't mention in this thread.

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wassup

[chovynz]

The problem I see is that people jump into those big fights without actually roleplaying... but that's
another problem which you didn't mention in this thread.

That is the crux of where Joe is coming from I think.
Just from my own observations of "ganking".

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Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.

[Agmen of Eladesor]

I read most of it.

And I agree with Balthazzar.

The issue isn't really ganking - the issue is lack of roleplay. Certainly I've come into battles in Bretonia where we've had great RP with the victim, and due to their sense of honor, the Bretonians role-play it down to a 1on1 duel. Great code of chivalric combat and all that - which is how they are in Bretonia.

I've also been involved in battles in Liberty where my character and the person I was flying with ended up being on the receiving end of not just the person we were originally involved with, but a total of 6 more criminal types showed up to jump on us. Gank? Sure - but also a sign of respect for who we are, that they thought it would take that many of them to take us out. And of course, the minor detail that it was two bounty hunter bombers MEANT that it took 4 gunboats and 3 fighters to take us out. I don't recall either one of us complaining afterwards about being ganked - just about how we made them work for the kill.

Role-playing means that sometimes you end up in an unwinnable combat situation. Welcome to the simulation of real-life - you know, the non-hacked Kobiyashi Maru scenario. How you deal with life - and death, even in simulation - can be a learning experience. (Whether you learn something positive or negative is up to you.)

Have I been ganked before on other characters? Sure. I mostly play bounty hunters - and Harvesters. Come on, that SCREAMS gank me. But give me some role-play.

I don't think you really addressed whether the role play was part of it. Even in scheduled events, we still RP - and when they turn into gankfests - well, that which causes you to eject from your ship sometimes makes you stronger.

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[Jihadjoe]

Well Balthazzar, I guess we're a little different. You view it as pointless and I view it as fundamental to the gameplay on the server. No... Wait... I view it as fundamental to people -having fun- on the server.

This is an RP environment, a rather good one. But the depth we have put into this game isn't in the brutal realism of our military re-enactments is it? I mean... It's a spaceship game. It couldn't be much further removed from reality.

The RP depth I admire isn't in creating a realistic universe... It lies in creating character, with depth, meaning, perhaps they are a metaphor for something far more important and far ranging, I dunno...

Bending the concept of reality for the sake of fun, is something I think I can live with in a game which is based in space.

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[Tic]

For whatever it's worth, Ticcy, I'm out of the LN to avoid wasting my time giving lectures on fairplay, trying to make the whole place a bit better for everyone, when I see what I prevent hit me over and over.
Been that way everywhere, most of the time, and I'm not going to spend my days on a Dread with a gun pointed at everyone again to make sure people get a fair fight.

Yeah... Right... You giving lectures on fairplay... That'd be like... I dunno... Me giving lectures on benefits of LF usage...

And to clear it out a bit, i don't own a single LF among more then 70 chars...


And once more, i have to somewhat agree with Balthazzar, outnumbering on Disco certainly is in RP, since we're roleplaying what we would do in real life, and if you have a choice of ganking your oponent or losing your life, i doubt anyone would choose the latter, but we can't forget this is just a game, and even thought some people see it as something more, it is not.

[Thurgret]

I've had characters lose their ships four times in the time I've been playing here. I've been in more fights than that, but I only recall actually winning just one of them. Since my experience is frankly somewhat limited, I'll go with what I know and what was fun and what wasn't.

Once, it was a swarm of pirate ships - some fighters, some bombers - against the guns of Trenton outpost, a swarm of fighters and a dreadnought. I was with the lawfuls. That was -brilliant-. It didn't matter that I lost my ship. I checked the pirate factions message dump later on, and laughed at it when I saw that the dreadnought had managed to crash into Manhattan. It was fun. It seemed balanced (in truth, the pirates gave the lawfuls a thrashing, but the fight took a loooong time). I wanted my ship to be there and to take part in that. I knew I was horribly outmatched by most of them in terms of both flying skill and equipment. It didn't matter. It was fun.

The other times - well, I'll not point fingers. They weren't fun. They involved me being outnumbered and outgunned, me trying to flee, them CDing me and blowing my ship to bits so that they could get my spare 20 credit countermeasures.

I -have- managed to flee from some fights, actually, but only when other friendlies have been nearby.


But -- this isn't about personal issues, but the game as a whole. Going from what I know, however, being killed is not fun if it is a situation where you would rather flee than fight. If you are content to face overwhelming odds and find it enjoyable, then good on you. If not, flee. And, attackers - don't CD them. Let them get away. From the moment they activate their cruise engines, they'll not be allowed touch you or come into the system you're in for so long as you stay there for 4 hours. The only exceptions to this are if they are a trader, in which case you should still try to RP a bit more even when they try to flee, if there is some very valid reason to kill them e.g. they have a bounty on them and you're a bounty hunter, or if it would be utterly ooRP to let them go e.g. Order vs. Nomads.


Edited to add: if you outnumber someone, it seems weird that anyone would pull back. But let folks flee if they want to flee.


Also, had a great learning experience earlier. I was with a small convoy - two transports, two VHFs. One pirate in a VHF stopped us. We talked to him, he called a freighter over, transports dumped some goods for the freighter, we continued. We could probably have destroyed both pirates. But in hindsight, what did happen was much better.