AW controlling Omicron Theta

[TankTarget]

For one Hyperwave, whilist I respect your opinion. How dare you say that HF and AW should not be allied? We have every right to be allied just as RM and SF do. And SA and SF. HF and AW have an alliance, sometimes all it takes is enough things in common and an alliance is not too far out from the scope of sight and reality. The main Characters of each faction, Luciaden and Drake Thastus are both ruthless killing machines with extreme intellegence. They both run a mercenary business (which unknown to most people because they never read anything) HF is a pirate merc group. Two Mercenary groups with two leaders that are very similar although different species. And both have a hatred for cowards and etc... Our alliance was forged back when everyone and their grandma allied but we had a good reason. Both leaders had met in RP and discussed terms for an alliance. Agreeing on the terms it evolved into one of the longest standing and most productive alliances ever. We help them and they help us. And there is alot of non RP reasons for why we allied but i assure you 95% of our reasons are RP...look at other factions. That ally everything that moves.

Not to pick on people but, SA...allies with CUFF and CCE immediately. then they ally with BSG and then SF. they then try to suck up to every other house and you all high mighty don't whine at them. Just AW because you and many other people in the community hate AW and hate Dab and all they want is to whine about every damned detail of the person and the faction in an attempt to put them down and get rid of them because the fact the AW was once the biggest faction makes them feel SMALL. I am tired of the AW bashing for god's sake ENOUGH!!!! Yeah I expect to get flamed.

[Hyperwave22]

Dab, thank you for clearing that up (AW affiliation). Also, I took your demands the wrong way, but seeing as AW did attack Leeds, I figured that the demands should have been taken in this way.

I'm not going to say much about the SF/RM alliance because that was changed by the war; I have not say in that.

On the Lane Hacker subject, I believe - based off the recent "close affiliation" aspect - that you would then be neutral to the Lane Hackers. If it says that the Zoners are allied with the Outcasts, then they're allied with them, but I fail to see where the alliance with the Lane Hackers comes here. Yes, there's a Zoner/Outcast alliance, but the Lane Hacker alliance is not denoted on the ID, which would lead me to think that the Zoners regard them as neutral. If ID's are used as I've seen them before, this would be true.

If you say that the Zoners are friendly with the GMG and Outcasts, then the GMG "friendship" would lead to AW being friendly with the Kusari Navy. This leads to a conflict of interests that wasn't there to start with.

Taking this one step further, I could then say that SF could actually be friendly with the Kusari Navy because when they kill too many Outcasts, a whole host of KU factions like them. They were not on the BAF ID to start with, but because they are neutral (to start), then wouldn't SF be able to claim an alliance with the KNF?

Tell me if you did not understand that as it was kind of complicated to write, and I'll try to sort it out. But, I still stand that AW shouldn't be aligned with HF.

I don't mean to flame here, but it seems that this problem comes up more than once, so hopefully we can resolve this without feeding the fire too much. I'm actually surprised that this hasn't become a flame fest yet.:shok:

Hype

Edit: Tank, I'm not going to flame you, but I don't see how you can say I hate Dab. I don't agree with all of his decisions, but I can see that running AW is very hard due to the aligment issues. I'm trying to help with my opinions, and he can review them, tell me his view, and bounce them back off me. I still take into consideration what he posts. Tank, please, if you want to flame me, don't destroy the thread, and PM me.

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Retired
A very big thanks to Dark Oddity who put my signature pic together

[Dab]

Firstly, Tank was speaking more of some others. Not everyone hates me, but many people do without really having much reason to.

And again, you say we should be friendly/allied/hostile/neutral to who our ID says we should be. This is (again) hypocritical, coming from an SF who is allied to RM, who are nearly at war with BAF's ally, Liberty (SF's ally, SA). You can't tell me to follow my ID completely, when you faction does almost the opposite. I follow it quite closely, not purely, but very closely. Zoners are friendly with Outcasts, allied to GMG, and allied to The Order. We've reversed that. Allied with an Outcast-ally. Friendly to Outcasts, friendly to The Order. The only changes are we have an ally thats an ally of Outcasts, instead of GMG. GMG is neutral, and The Order (Bs|) is friendly instead of allied. I'd say thats pretty close to the Zoner's reps.

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[Hyperwave22]

This is (again) hypocritical, coming from an SF who is allied to RM, who are nearly at war with BAF's ally, Liberty (SF's ally, SA).

Okay, I concede there. However, please remember that I view these as extraordinary circumstances, as SF was allied with RM before the war started, and there is kind of a breach between the story line and faction statuses. I would kind of feel weird if I had to figure this problem out; like I said, though, it is more or less beyond my control.

Now, I realize that I have contrasting views with some of the posters here and neither side will likely change in the future, so I will try to bring this back on topic:

AW might already have some of these factors in place, but I will post this opinion just to reinforce what I believe.

AW should have complete control of Omicron-74, and should have light control over Omicron Theta. This would mean "protecting the innocent" as Dab said. I think that this would apply to all independent systems that may have a strong Zoner influence (i.e. Tau-37). Their rights should be very similar in these types of systems: Attempting to keep the peace, protecting innocent traders from pirating (dependent on correct circumstances, of course), and keeping it safe for traders. (There may be some more, but I can't think of any right now.)

Hype

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Retired
A very big thanks to Dark Oddity who put my signature pic together

[McNeo]

Actually an insert here McNeo, you began firing randomly at HF ships LONG BEFORE you ever were hired. For the record, hell when I first made HF I was buying weapons in an unknown system (this was when we were just Mercs nothing more) I was fired on by your Battleship when I was buying guns for mine. (A NOD Osiris saved my ass when I was dock raped by you). Now say whatever everything above is true.

You fail to realise that being a lane hacker, you are fair game to any bounty hunter. You can consider this for a moment; I do favours for many sides, like the SF and SA when i can.

I let your shield come up did i not? I remember the incident but not clearly so please tell me if i let your shied come up. I dont want to make assumptions and make this an unpleasant experience.

Everything above probably is true, from your point of view. No matter how hard anyone tries, events in the past will always be skewered by their perception of those events. This applies to everybody, including myself. That is why arguements and disagreements happen in the first place.

For one Hyperwave, whilist I respect your opinion. How dare you say that HF and AW should not be allied? We have every right to be allied just as RM and SF do. And SA and SF. HF and AW have an alliance, sometimes all it takes is enough things in common and an alliance is not too far out from the scope of sight and reality. The main Characters of each faction, Luciaden and Drake Thastus are both ruthless killing machines with extreme intellegence. They both run a mercenary business (which unknown to most people because they never read anything) HF is a pirate merc group. Two Mercenary groups with two leaders that are very similar although different species. And both have a hatred for cowards and etc... Our alliance was forged back when everyone and their grandma allied but we had a good reason. Both leaders had met in RP and discussed terms for an alliance. Agreeing on the terms it evolved into one of the longest standing and most productive alliances ever. We help them and they help us. And there is alot of non RP reasons for why we allied but i assure you 95% of our reasons are RP...look at other factions. That ally everything that moves.

Not to pick on people but, SA...allies with CUFF and CCE immediately. then they ally with BSG and then SF. they then try to suck up to every other house and you all high mighty don't whine at them. Just AW because you and many other people in the community hate AW and hate Dab and all they want is to whine about every damned detail of the person and the faction in an attempt to put them down and get rid of them because the fact the AW was once the biggest faction makes them feel SMALL. I am tired of the AW bashing for god's sake ENOUGH!!!! Yeah I expect to get flamed.

First line: Don't use provoking language in a reasoned debate. Simply state your opinions and reasons for those, like the other contestants of this debate. There is no need to use angry language. I know your sick of AW bashing, but this is a reasonable and valid debate, which you are trying to spoil. If you look at what Hyperwave could have said after your second post, you would see that it could have very quickly degenerated into a forest fire. We dont want that do we?

Other factions have different alignments to AW. With your reasoning, the SA, shouldn't be allowed to ally with the SF (currently allied to them through the war). CUFF claimed, when they came back to the server for a short period, that they were a lawful organisation. Now, lies this may have been, but the SA trying to ally with them is perfectly reasonable. CCE were, i believe, a Kusari lawful faction at that time. Even though the war could make this doubtful, as well as their alliance with KNF, bearin mind that they are not at war yet, and Liberty are trying to act as mediators in the war (albeit not allowing IMG representatives from Rhineland). Due to this aspect, it can be argued with some success that Liberty does have the right to ally with both in an attempt to stop them killing each other.

I do not hate AW or Dab. Far from it in fact, hes a nice guy. I just do not agree with the diplomacy that he uses. I can see others not likeing Dab and using it as a reason to call into question everything he does, and i can see why this drives you to defend him in an indiscriminate way from all comers. Thats fine, but dont defend him in such a way that you offend other people, as this causes flames. Im not trying to tell you what you can and cant do, im trying to tell you what you should and shouldn't do.

The SF being allied with RM goes back quite a long time if i gather correctly. However, one of those sides isnt involved in the war yet, and therefore still is entitled to keep that alliance. Yes, the diplomacy between those two sides ingame is falling apart (on the news), but it hasn't fallen apart yet. I am sure that when this becomes a 2v2 war between the houses, that the SF will be forced to break off their alliance with RM. If they dont do so quickly after the full war starts, you canbet on another one of these threads poping up.

Dab, thankyou for clarifying the term "closely affiliated". I see now that your position means that, though you defend the zoners, you are more like a contracted organisation, which are truely separate from the Zoners themselves. You are part of the Zoners, but a separate organisation happening to be defending them from agressors AS WELL AS protecting your own interests. You have proved your point and i stand down. From the evidence presented in front of me, you have convinced me that you diplomacy is correct. Above, i say that i do not agree with your diplomacy (2 paragraphs up), but those were under the conditions that i understood them as. Now i understand what you view yourself as and you are correct.

[Dab]

Okay, I concede there. However, please remember that I view these as extraordinary circumstances, as SF was allied with RM before the war started, and there is kind of a breach between the story line and faction statuses.

So your saying its okay for SA, SF, RM, and KNF to do it, but not AW. Sorry, but you can go screw yourself now. Don't be surprised if I ignore the rest of your posts in this thread.

Dab, I warn you. If you can't keep it polite, stay silent.
<sanitized by majkp>

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[Panzer]

(whoa, getting ugly here)

AW is a quite unique creation. Quite similarly to BSG.

The controversial part about Theta is the battle ban (if I may call it that way).

As BSG is "closely affiliated" with IMG, it has the right to engage outcast units in the Taus.

Now, AW imo, could enforce this battle ban. On the same basis as the real zoners somehow keep Theta from becoming the main Outcast-Corsair battleground. (Although they seem a bit like leaning towards the corsairs according to rumors/infocards/news)

For the time being at least. Since they've got Omicron 74, (great job with it, Dab), the "what may AW do" problem will probably cease to exist. AW will get a nice, cosy home and Theta will (probably) serve as their direct area of inflence. Just like BS| owns Omicron 100, while having large influence in Omicron minor.

Imo, there should be some clear rules, defining, what faction may do what in which system and when aligned to what NPCs.

my 2 cents

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[Dab]

lol, Battle ban, I like it.

BTW, to clear up a bit of stuff, Zoners are not leaning towards Corsairs. Corsairs recently requested the right to build a base in Omicron Theta and the Zoners did not allow it. Zoners also have their sole Juggernaut stationed in Theta for the purpose of keeping the Corsairs from coming in and taking control of Freeport 9 and/or its biodomes, which they rely on to feed the people on Crete. Corsair-Zoner tensions are much more tense than the Outcast-Zoner relationship.

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[majkp]

Well, I think Korrd made it quite clear. He answered the question I was asking.

AW can patrol Theta, defend traders and neutrals and make steps against their enemies to keep their home (O-74) safe, especially during their war. But AW will not be able to control Theta (after they move) so rules like general 'battle ban' will not be possible in Theta, only in their home system.

No. We cannot control Theta after we move to 74. That is a fact. No faction can control other system than his home system. The only influence we keep is against the current enemies because of the war area of influence.
But we will keep patrolling the system to protect traders, neutrals (those who request help) and allies passing through against pirates, enemies and unfriendlies.

[Hyperwave22]

So your saying its okay for SA, SF, RM, and KNF to do it, but not AW. Sorry, but you can go screw yourself now. Don't be surprised if I ignore the rest of your posts in this thread.

What I am saying is that there was an alliance there before the war started. Alliances don't necessarily break easily, and countries (in this case factions) would try to do everything they could before breaking it. This would probably mean RM/SA getting involved in the war. I've had my say from here, and I will do my best to avoid this subject here.

I am done arguing that point from here on out. Plus, Dab, I don't like being told to go screw myself; I didn't get a chance to read the rest of the post, but if you could please refrain from that. Like Tank, if you want to get in an argument with me, take it up in a PM.

Hype

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Retired
A very big thanks to Dark Oddity who put my signature pic together