' Wrote:Why do you cling on to the neutrality, when it clearly is no longer plausable, with such a rapid and unexplained expansion of power? Having planets and battleships means you are clearly meant to be treated differently.
People have been warned by Admins before for making enemies of zoners, oorp hate? Player abuse? Not keeping within respect of others? Or, perfectly inRP response to the changes that have been shoved in the faces of the factions that deal with the new monster of a faction that spawned from the old, rather unoffensive faction.
Reap what you soe. And stay away from the forums when someone blows you up.
In short; if players are to control the fate of their factions rp, then let players be in control of how they treat the changes of rp of other factions.
We cling to it because it is the central part of Zoner RP.
The cap ships and planets were thrown at Zoners without any regard to the problems they would cause with its RP.
Yes, people have been warned. QCP is the only one I know of and that stemmed from ooRP hate. I wasn't here for all of it nor did I actually become bothered by it due to time differences. However, after talking with people who left QCP because of what they felt was wrong and not QCP's RP, I feel I can safely say it was ooRP hate.
Reap what you soe?
Zoner players didn't soe a damn thing. The developers threw crap at Zoner players without thinking about the issues it would create. I'd personally like to see the issues retconn'd and fixed. However, there are many that would cry if certain toys they have access to now, vanished tomorrow.
Also. How about you post what you think Zoners are instead of posting hate and not contributing to the thread.
Is it really hard to understand what do I mean? For sure my English is bad, but I think you didn't want to understand. And where do you see a hate in my post?
My first char was Zoner more than two years ago and up to now it is my main char. So, you shouldn't imply that I hate Zoners.
My point is: I don't like the way of present Zoners, all problems Zoners have, this ooRP hate you can see somewhere, these whale hunters, are because of the "power" Zoners got.
What do I mean "power"?
I tell you : three own systems, settled planet, several dozens of stations everywhere, biggest warships, biggest transport vessels. That is a "power".
Show me another independent faction that have got all of this?
Only Houses. (and IMG :unsure:)
Yes Zoners got a "power" of a House, but they didn't get consequences of that. They still pose as bunch of lonely outsiders with fixed given by gods neutrality and limited to minimum responsibility. The House cannot be neutral to all. This is the oddity of Zoners.
I play Zoners, but it doesn't change my point of view. I am ready to give back my whale and my gunboat, but I won't stop playing as Zoner if it will come to that.
If I understood well what you said in your last post, I think we are talking the same, almost.
Only I think that nobody gave Zoners anything they didn't want. Some Zoners from the top of food chain of Discovery had to have their fingers in it, so "Reap what you soe" is true.
OK Cross, I'll reply in part. Firstly, there was only one person who quit QCP because of the Zoner incident, that person was a very old friend of a fairly ill tempered individual, who seemed to lose it quite badly after he was sanctioned for destroying a QCP bomber without engagement notice, along with some swearing.
There was no OORP hate in QCP attacking Zoners, the event had been preceded by a notification that we were looking into the smuggling activities of Zoners through Dublin, as well as the stream of Corsairs entering via Omega 49 and claims and reports of Zoners supporting, supplying and giving a place to land for Corsairs. More than enough justification for a little bit of privateering; hell "they're moving tons of junk, lets steal it" is frankly fair dues for the questionable nature of Privateers. Problems followed when the Zoners in their wisdom confused Privateers with the Bretonian Government, a classic mistake that no house ever makes with our activities in Kusari destroying Liberty and Rheinland traders even. I'll leave it at that.
Secondly, OK, didn't soe it? Then dig up the seed and put it in the bin, if you don't want to reap it. Don't say you can't, if the combined leadership of the zoner official factions goes to Admins/Devs and demands something be changed, there is a fair chance it'll get seriously looked at, even done. It's not a core part of Discovery such as the war storyline. There is an obvious precedent to this type of request, the Liberty Rogues got their Destroyer made into a SRP and people cried at that, why not ask the same of zoner caps? I mean, if it is so vital to some of your RP, then a SRP request should not be too hard.
If however, you are unable to take the step to change Zoner RP, then it is very obvious to me that you have no desire or intent to remove the Caps or planets, so you therefore have to reap what you soe. If you want to play innocent about it, and say "I didn't add the caps!" then that just won't swim.
Again, reap what you soe, and don't come to the forums after you get blown up.
' Wrote:either way - the question "what zoner RP is about and how it is meant to be" is exclusivly zoner business.
Not if the players RPing Zoners have completely deviated from what it was to be a Zoner in vanilla yet claiming the neutrality of the vanilla Zoners who are a completely different animal. You can't expect to be taken in the same regard when you go from a collection of people living on stations into a massive organization of people with a complete line of capital ships (2 cruisers, AND 2 battleships? You have more than Kusari does who are a full fledged house with the proper minds and means to build them) and planets that you administer and trading conglomerates that allow you to amass massive fortunes. If you think you Zoner players are the only ones allowed to steer Zoner RP then what stops you from expanding to the point of House status? What is next for you? Maybe players RPing Bretonia should take the same approach and conquer the Omegas, since that is what they want and that is "exclusively Bretonia business." Oh, but it's not, since there are other factions in the Omegas. Statements like yours make people believe you simply don't care about how other factions might be affected or respond.
Roleplay is a two-way street. If you simply want the good without the bad, then that amounts to powergaming.
As for the QCP, Markham said it well. I'll just add that if you're not a Bretonian corporate trader, we are perfectly within our rights to pirate you. However, if you need a RP reasoning its quite simple: Zoners let the Corsairs in to Bretonia's doorstep. The same Corsairs that pirate within Bretonia fight alongside KNF in Leeds against the BAF.
' Wrote:My point is: I don't like the way of present Zoners, all problems Zoners have, this ooRP hate you can see somewhere, these whale hunters, are because of the "power" Zoners got.
What do I mean "power"?
I tell you : three own systems, settled planet, several dozens of stations everywhere, biggest warships, biggest transport vessels. That is a "power".
Show me another independent faction that have got all of this?
Only Houses. (and IMG :unsure:)
Yes Zoners got a "power" of a House, but they didn't get consequences of that. They still pose as bunch of lonely outsiders with fixed given by gods neutrality and limited to minimum responsibility. The House cannot be neutral to all. This is the oddity of Zoners.
I play Zoners, but it doesn't change my point of view. I am ready to give back my whale and my gunboat, but I won't stop playing as Zoner if it will come to that.
If I understood well what you said in your last post, I think we are talking the same, almost.
Only I think that nobody gave Zoners anything they didn't want. Some Zoners from the top of food chain of Discovery had to have their fingers in it, so "Reap what you soe" is true.
I asked because I didn't know if you meant in role play power, or that which the factions wield as faction rights.
I'll agree with you on many points you made.
1. The two owned systems. While I think TAZ and ZTC deserve them just as much as any other faction out there, I am no fan of the guard systems. Finding a planet or system to call our own is one of the things Zoners were striving for in vanilla. Having two removes that goal.
2. Gran Canaria - again. A planet to call their own i something Zoners were striving for in vanilla. Giving it to the faction removes that goal. It also removes from our RP the need to explore. If we have a planet, which we can set up our own society on. Why look for another?
3. The ships. Again, I agree. I'd remove all of the cap ships if I had the ability. As for the transport? I'd retcon that to have been a joint project between GMG/Zoners or IMG/Zoners and have it as a shared ship between the factions.
4. I disagree on the given neutrality. If a faction wants to treat us as hostile, do so. We however cannot be the ones to break neutrality with another faction without proper reasoning. Do some Zoners cry 'neutrality' when faced with hostility. Sure do. Burn them for it. You'll be doing me a favor.
As for some Zoners having a hand in it. From what I am told by developers and Jinx (the person who designed the Zoner ships). Gran Canaria was built by a system developer and just given to Zoners. The ships were given to the faction in a time when role play wasn't the highest priority.
Do I wish the people that play Zoners with me could sacrifice things to bring the current Zoners back in line with Vanilla ones? Yes, but I know that won't happen.
@ Markam
There were more, one was an admin/moderator or something. I can't remember exactly who it was but he told me he quit because he didn't agree with the route Blunt took QCP down. Do I think the role play of QCP attacking Zoners for feeding the Corsairs is okay? Sure. Problem was, it was taken to the point of grieving other players just for the sheer fun of grieving them. There was a problem with the abuse of the Zoner Guard ID by people not in the official factions and not even caring about role play. In response to these nonRP'rs people started hunting Zoners. Guess who took the brunt of it? OSI, TAZ, ZTC and they weren't the ones abusing the ID, they were role playing. I'll leave the QCP bit alone now, I honestly think both sides had justifications and both side made mistakes.
As for going to the developers. We have. We've asked that the Jinkusu become SRP only. We are considering asking for the Aquilon to be removed or given to another faction. Gran Canaria? I pointed out the problem with it in this very thread. Removing it wouldn't bother me much. Just modify Lanzarote to become a tad bigger. However, there are a million and one role play lines that are connected to Gran Canaria. Port Jackson being the one that pops into my mind first.
Removing Canaria isn't just something that would affect Zoners. It would affect the role play of a few Bretonian factions and the Corsairs also. So that cannot be done without a consensus of those faction leaders also.
*sigh* When I see so many people who aren't Zoners telling us what to do, it frustrates me. Especially when the parties have always been on the opposite side of the fence as opposed to sitting on it and giving opinions. It just makes them look like, for lack of a more insulting term, donkeys.
Now then, on the basis of Gran Canaria. I really see no problem with it aside from all of the lolrage that it provides our critics who want so desperately something to shoot. I look at O-49 the same way I look at Newcastle. It's full of so many bizarre things that make little sense, yet I still find it awesome and roll with it.
You can see a Nomad city almost from the moment you jump into the system. It's not like it wouldn't raise an alarm in the civilian populace, but for the most part, people go with the flow. You can actively see an Outcast base from 60K away just from the sheer enormity of the asteroid. Surely somebody knows the base is there. Belfast is protected by all of ten thousand Bloodhounds. The BAF could probably take it back with relative ease with a gunboat or two.
Nobody cares about these things because none of these things are related to Disco's biggest ostracized scapegoat. So somehow when every civilian pilot in the system can see an alien city, it is incredibly outweighed by the completely, utterly, nonsensical idea that the Zoners got a planet? How could they? Anger, rage!
Outcasts are reputed to be excellent pilots with lackluster shipbuilding ability (hence the Borderworlds Sabre) yet they have not only a cruiser, but a gunship, a battleship, and even a full-blown dreadnought. But nobody cares because they have enemies to shoot them with.
The IMG, a ragtag group of ruffian miners living in the middle of nowhere who are basically Zoners with the exception of the Outcast nemesis, can get off with battlecruisers and carriers with not so much as a raised eyebrow. All because, perhaps, a group spawned from Battlestar Galactica of all things, resides in the system which the aforementioned ships are built.
We didn't ask for what we were given and we are perfectly content to continue our RP as it has been, regardless of what the devs throw at us. You're going to argue that the IMG and OCs didn't ask for what they were given either. So I ask why then, you choose to pick on us?
Well, since people giving their opinions makes them donkeys, what does that make you?
Just because you disagree with someone's opinion it doesn't make it invalid. I don't see much a point in responding since I am a donkey and should be working on a farm somewhere.
Eee-haa!
But hell, I'm bored.
Gran Canaria is a problem because the Zoner pipe dream was to get a planet. Now that they got it, where do they go from there? I suppose the Blood Dragons should ask to take over Kusari, or the Hessians Rheinland? Hmm.. interesting concept, factions getting their holy grail.
IMG got caps because of CR, plain and simple. Outcasts got them because Corsairs got them. Why they were introducted to begin with I don't know, nor do I particularly care but I'm sure it's something to do with adding vareity to the usual Sabre vs Titan battles. What's done is done, however, and I don't advocate removing the Zoner ships. SRP? Yeah, the Juggy at least.
But you fail to see the point that many are making when it comes to the Zoners. You are not the Zoners of vanilla. As far as vanilla factions go, you have grown in 18 years since SP ended by a simply astonishing rate, to the point where its really unbelievable. You have grown to the size and ability to the point where you can't simply be ignored as "those folk in the Omicrons" since quite frankly you're everywhere except Gallia. Some Zoner players understand that neutrality isn't a given, however many that do claim this as some sort of right and (I'll use one of your terms) lolrage when they get pirated, god forbid.
I had an interesting discussion with a Zoner player that said he would like Zoners to get their own snubfighter shipline, for their gunboat turrets not to drain their light gunboats powerplant quickly (as if other light gunboats don't have this problem) and co-incidentally I was called a donkey (the more vulgar version) just for disagreeing. I am of the opinion that Zoners have enough, even too much in some regard, and still have the ability to claim Sirius wide neutrality. If you can't accept my opinion, that I actually dare to have one different than yours... too frickin' bad.
I wasn't calling them donkeys for having a differing opinion.
I was calling them donkeys for offering an ignorant opinion. I can grumble and grouse all I like if I have a negative experience with the Keepers, but I wouldn't ever gander to tell them how to RP. Especially if I've never played as one.
Imagine for example, corsairs getting a second planet which has fertile soil.
Imagine outcast solving their fertility problem.
Imagine zoners finaly getting their home plan.. oh wait this already happened. And tha fact that not only zoners lives in gran canaria doesn't changes anything. They control it, this is what it counts.
See. Here is the problem. Numerous battleships, capital vessels for?
heh. Jinx said it's totaly factions buissnes how do I develop my own faction. So basicly you are saying I can totaly develop Corsair faction in the way that each corsair has so much food and are fat arses riding a wheelchairs, becouse they can't move on their own due the fat?
No. You would definatly oppose that. Why? becouse one factions changed stance changes the reaction to it. It drasticly effects other people roleplay even if they do not want it.
Second, what Markam said. If faction which was small and well, coudln't install any fear grows up in a matter of few years, other factions will start to treat it diffrently. Big guns attracts even bigger guns. It always was so it always be so.
It's strange how vanila npc faction which hadn't even had transports (only dromedaries..) grew into such thing.
And instead of blaimg people for mindless hate, try to see what actually installs that hate. Maybe they are not 100 percent right, but they have a piece of truth too.
Discovery is too big and too illogical, and the space moves players apart creating a sense of an emptier server. I actually haven't visited any 'new' location, with the exception of sparta, and the black hole, and thought "this adds something original to the game."
The Zoners aren't the only flawed faction, personally I'd like less systems., I'd also appreciate more power to the corporations, you know, those which actually have money, resources and reasons to build stations, rather than the 19 or so the IMG and zoners have each.