Zoners

[guitarguy]

Since some have suggested that the BAF| invade GC, I would like to note that this may not be militarily possible. (Although, discovery does sometimes require one to stretch the imagination.)

On top of that, the negative ramifications of invading a neutral planet may not be worth the benefits.

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[kuth]

~You propose that we limit the Jinkusu to SRP - I ask why? Sure, as one of the most difficult of "openly available" ships to acquire in the game in terms of both financial requirement and ID, every lolwut strives to fly one as a trophy or perhaps to compensate in some strange freudian way. However, the Zoner RP inhibits PVP Whoring - which is why you seldom see the Jinkusu being abused. You strike a valid point with the issue of how anyone can field one of the largest ships in the game - but your question applies to every capital class ship - and the answer is, there comes a point where realism and player RP enjoyment clash. On this server however, it seems we've come to favor the latter over the former. As a Jinkusu Rp-er myself, I must admit that I am biased at this point. After all, I've always attempted my utmost when RPing in my Jinkusu, and I've never abused my ship. Why should I have to give it up for a conceptual problem that hasn't manifested to the point of necessitating an intervention?

Most difficult to acquire? The ID takes at most twenty minutes to get if you are smart. Financially? There are 9 other battleships with nearly the exact same price (20mil difference). Seeing as for most of the other battle ships you have to run mission after mission to get the Guard ID, no. The Jinkusu isn't the hardest to obtain. It is one of the easiest.

The current fragmented nature of the Zoners fits quite nicely with the current power structure of the Zoners. The Zoners have split off into groups of common interest (as the original Zoners had from Sirius) - and have each formed powerful organizations in their respective fields (some becoming large trading groups, others becoming mining groups, and others still becoming a small but growing organized Religion). Like the city states of ancient Greece (though not nearly as militant) - they are usually separate, posing no threat to the status quo on their own. However, when encroached by a common threat, they become a formidable power to destroy the aggressors, before breaking off from mutual disinterest once the threat is gone - This sort of fragmentation embodies the very core of the neutrality that the Zoners represent.

This is exactly how many many of the members of the Alliance view ourselves.

Where the Jinkusu was a symbol of the Zoner capacity to defend themselves, peace through overwhelming firepower, the Aquilon is the main defense against Battleship class aggressors. Currently, it is the only practical battleship class vessel in the use of the Zoners, only the Aquilon can navigate through the dense asteroid clusters of the Zoner Zones of Influence. Removing the Aquilon would cripple the defensive potential of the Zoners against Battleships.

The Fearless applies to cruisers as what the Aquilon does to battleships. It too is a necessary deterrent and counter force to aggressors in cruiser class vessels.

Again, Zoners are not a faction that can stand up to most other factions in a war. We would be crushed by almost any other faction that has a battle ship. Exception perhaps being the IMG, who would likely be an even match for Zoners; seeing as they are very similar to Zoners.

The Fearless and wings of bombers are more than capable of defending our Freeports for what we should be able to defend from. If the Outcasts want 10, Corsairs 9, other factions the Freeports near them. They could take them (If Igiss allowed such a...deep change in the status quo). The Zoners' true weapon is their use of diplomacy and leveraging their ecomonic might. Not a fleet of battleships.

The Corvo is supposed to be a rugged research vessel, one which should be able to offer a measure of safety in the dangers of open space - a role that a gunboat can more than accomplish. This will however allow Corvos to serve within house space, which is contrary to the spirit of the vessel. Some measure should be made to restrict the Corvo to outside House space.

My suggestion, again, was merely a measure to make it a more public ship. Since Zoners are not the only explorers.

There are simply too many for the current Zoner player base to support without overexerting. Also, there is absolutely NO NEED for any Freeport to be located in proximity to another as they are supposed to be safe oases in the hostile desert of open space.

Seems most Zoner players feel this way. Perhaps the developers will listen to us and quit adding stations!

In addition, there is no reason for the Zoners to be considered "allied" to the Order as well - seeing how the Zoners are both technologically and economically isolated from the Order - or are at least as close to the Order as any other faction other than the default hostile ones. Some have misconstrued the Zoner ID "allied to Order" clause as an indication of favoritism Order issues over those of the BHG - it serves only to jeopardize Zoner neutrality.

You seem to understand where I am coming from and even read my mind. I thoguht the same about the Order, but didn't dare touch that because ZTC does have a more deep relationship with the Order than the other factions.

I am going to quote this man again, as this made me smile.

Now, with the near monopoly on neutrality in the border worlds, and the seductive allure of adventure and second chances - the Zoners have swollen into an economic and popular power. Their Freeports facilitate massive commerce among warring factions, and generate equally massive capital. The "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses" philosophy has encouraged a massive influx of settlers, workers, scientists, philosophers, and hopefuls from the far reaches of war-torn Sirius. Great minds from all walks of life have flocked to the Zoner lifestyle, bringing about a Renaissance of discovery and invention. Where the Zoners were once weak, they are now strong. Where they once had few, they now have many; where they were once poor, they are now rich; where they were once harmless, they are now formidable. All this, and yet - it has preserved its essence; to exist peaceably, uninvolved. All that has changed is how they once defended themselves by staying small, they now defend themselves with the fruits of their labor.

Almost all of the Zoner players in Sirius seem to understand this - they fly with the sense of security bought by the power of Zoner formidability. No, the Zoners were never meant to be a militant power. I say militant, because one can posses a strong military and still not be militant. The Zoners are non-aggressive, and their prosperity has been the result of their neutrality. Their large, well armed ships are a product of their new philosophy - We come in peace, but god help you if you don't - as it says in nearly all the heavily armed Zoner ship infocards.

This is how I envision Zoners when I first started and is one I wish for the faction. It is a true fusion of vanilla and disco.

@ Cam

Baiting me by saying I have no power is pointless. Go do something with your Jinkusu or Aquilon that breaks with Zoner RP and have someone RP showing me proof of the deed. I'll wield the same power that TAZ or ZTC would wield. None of us have bothered you because we honestly don't like blocking other people's role play.

As for trying to claim that I dislike you and your RP? I share the exact same feelings about you and your RP that Charles and Doc share.

Yes, everyone here expected you to complain when someone mentions putting a cap ship on SRP. In fact there were likely bets on how quick you'd post complaining about it.

Marcus said:
The Bretonians, and expansionist empire, are losing a war with Kusari. Now they are about to be attacked by Gallia. Bloody hell, lets the Bretonian fleet take over and annex the planet. Even the ZDF, something which I participated in the creation of, wouldn't be able to stop the Bretonians militarily and would have to retreat or surrender.

The exact same idea I had. Not only does this restore the Zoner Holy Grail to them, it also re enforces their hatred of the house governments and corporations, yet forces them to remain neutral to maintain their economic power and the other stations on Bretonia's door step.

@ Unseelie

Would the organized governance of the other freeports care? Likely, but they'd have to risk lessening their own defenses to aid them, and they'd have to spend public revenue to do so, as well as possibly pissing off outcasts, or outcast friends, in the area.

So, then, there are varying levels to what the Zoners are. A Zoner is expected to help other zoners. A base government has at its heart the interest of itself, or, if it is very enlightened, its people.

The Freeports depend on each other for supplies. If one Freeport falls, its neighbors are now left without critical supplies. So while sending part of their own defenses to aid their neighbor leaves them more vulnerable, not sending them does the same. so yes, a Freeport would send what it can send in the intrest of helping another Zoner and in the intrest of itself and its people.

Notice how the ZDF was created? It is funded by all members of the Alliance and serves to protect the members of the Alliance and Zoners that aren't in the Alliance; even though they don't help fund it. Each faction is still responsible for the defense of their home station(s), but the ZDF is there to assist. In this essence, a station doesn't need to send any of its own forces unless the sitiuation is dire. Instead the station needing help sends a request to the ZDF.

No, we won't ignore you or anyone else, this topic has been amazing in producing the results I had hoped it would.

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Lurker

[Tenacity]

The zoners arent the only faction whose roleplay has fundamentally changed between vanilla freelancer and discovery's current date.

I dont see a problem, and I dont see why anything needs to be fixed. I do think that a roleplay change is needed (which I will describe below), but I dont think there's any problem with the ships, weapons, stations, or bases in use by the Zoners right now, and I see absolutely no reason or need to remove those. A lot of players would be ticked off to the ears if you made some of the changes that are in this thread's first post, myself being one of them.

on to the changes that -do- need to be made...

Option 1: Split zoners up into a community of subfactions. To put it simply, this would confirm that each zoner freeport or base is its own entity, with its own governing group, its own military or security regiment, and is autonomous from the other zoners.
This is more like what the junker's congress is doing - each base has a leader (or a council of some sort to lead it) and acts on its own, but when a major issue comes up, all of them get together to make decisions that will effect the entire faction.

Option 2: Get rid of all the subfactions. The opposite of option one, this would entail that all zoner factions combine into one official faction rather than several, and that all zoner bases are ruled over by a single council or group. All freeports would be part of a whole, rather than autonomous bases.
This option makes more sense as far as the Zoners' military prowess goes, if all bases and smaller parts of the zoner faction are working together as a whole, they have more power to produce those ships, they have more population and more organization.

Neither of these requires any change to the actual items or ships in-game, however, but instead they are solutions to the issue of the zoner factions constantly bickering and never knowing who's really in charge.

And to reiterate, remove my fearless destroyer and I will kill >.>

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[Jinx]

a quick one...

you say "bombers and the fearless can defend freeports just as well" -

but thats totally wrong of course ( i mean : of course ) - cause you re mixing game mechanics and roleplay - two parts that simply do not come together when it comes to balance.

matter of fact - a juggernaut can hold back swarms of bombers, fighters and capships - thats the lore. - it cannot do ingame, cause that would be unbalanced. - but one must decide to balance a faction based on game-balance or roleplay. ( disco favours the gameplay before roleplay when its about balance )



and i still havent got my two questions anwered...

what are zoners meant to be like?
how are zoners supposed to be considered by others?

these are still not anwered - ppl got carried away in separating freeports - but quite honestly. - even if it was done - ppl would still complain about zoners claiming a neutrality ( the cornerstone of complaints ).

so - how can the bickering about zoners stop? - only when the two above questions are agreed on.




but as i said before.



what if:


- a faction called themselves "true zoners" and was restricted to what they can use in vanilla ( starflier to eagle, dagger to sabre, no bomber, no transport, no capship - greatest freighter being the dromedary )
- they would NOT dock with houses ( guards ) - and they would only do trading between freeports and vital supply depots
- they get all original vanilla freeports ! ( and all the zoner vanila zoner lore )
- all factions MUST be neutral to them - and these zoners MUST NOT engage others verbally or with weaponpower.

then there is another faction called "zoners"

- they get the discovery freeports!
- gran canaria
- they keep the capital ships, the transports, and the current choice in general
- they are turned UNFRIENDLY to corsairs, outcasts as the major changes - and basicly unfriendly to all lawful house / core factions! ( unfriendly = red )
- they are allowed to activly defend their property, execute preemptive strikes against enemies or unfriendlies based on RP ( no terrorist, but basicly unfriendly. they will not mess with you, but when you mess with them, they will answer with the full power of player capabilities and all the ships they have - you keep trying to pull them into a war, they will become a permanent enemy - which can mean that they can become a quasi terrorist faction - but passivly - when being pulled into conflicts )
- they loose their Allies completely ( no order, no GMG )



prediction:

- the "true zoners" will die out.
- the "zoners" will become a horribly annoying faction.

what have i just shown?

- true zoners - as requested became a "minor faction" thats simply quite boring - so boring that its not worth even trying to act hostile towards them.
- zoners follow the call "how can a faction with such power be neutral" - so they are turned NON-neutral.



that is not carried away btw. - that is what ppl asked for. - people said "zoners in vanilla were able to remain neutral, cause they were a minor faction" ( this example makes them a minor faction ) - and zoners in disco cannot be neutral and must not claim to be, cause they are a military power ( yes, we keep the military power, but turn them unfriendly ) - is that what you want?
people will be allowed to drag these "zoners" into a war, - and the zoners can also start hostilities with others ( just like any other "custom faction that starts out rather unfriendly" ) - in other words, no "nice play" - zoners can shoot first, ask later, cause they are no peace loving hippies - they are a military force of the edgeworlds - with highly valuable property to protect.

when you ask "but how do they finance themselves" or "where do they come from" - its easy to make up lore. lore has been made up for custom factions before to justify their present state.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[Linkus]

I follow a simple ethos.

If you can justify it with logical thought, without any major flaws in the argument, it is pretty damn sound. Whoever argues with you will be defeated. Anyone who doesn't argue with you..why are you bothered with them? Go ahead anyway, people will argue if they disagree and when they do, you can defeat them with your well thought out and logical views.


Please avoid retcon's.
They are horrible.
A retcon to make things more 'realistic' is just utterly stupid. It's like jumping in a pool because you want to dry.
Retcon'ing is not realistic.
Do not try make things more realistic by retcon'ing.
Work with it.


The Mollys are doing it to remove the powergaming aspect of their history. They aren't removing their history though.

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Facilitating the rise of robotics since 0 A.D.

[bluntpencil2001]

Note that there are hints at Zoner fragmentation in Discovery infocards. The Freeport at the ass-end of the Canada systems seems to be made up of Zoners that left the other Zoners for whatever reason.

I've suggested before that the Zoners be made into a group of factions, such as Freeport 1 Zoners, known for not trying to piss of Bretonia and Rheinland for instance, and Omicron Zoners, known for their balancing act between the Corsairs, Outcasts, Bounty Hunters and Freelancers.

Also, regarding the lore on Juggernauts, how much of the rumours are actually true? A mystical ship that nobody has seen in action, known for destroying all comers, but with no evidence of it having done so? There's a good chance that the Zoners just slipped some exaggerated intelligence to pirates. When we only have rumours, we shouldn't take it as gospel.

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[jammi]

what are zoners meant to be like?
how are zoners supposed to be considered by others?

these are still not anwered - ppl got carried away in separating freeports - but quite honestly. - even if it was done - ppl would still complain about zoners claiming a neutrality ( the cornerstone of complaints ).

Currently people complain about the Zoner's neutrality because they have a capital superfleet, a planet, an economy that is somehow out-competing house economies and a population that has grown from 4,500 to a magnitude of several hundred million.

Doing something to Gran Canaria nixes points 2 and 4, while 1 would be addressed by the proposed restrictions. I'm not against this. Currently, the Zoners are picked on because what they are does not befit the role they have been given. Remove that which has caused them to become what they (illogically) are, and you remove the vast majority of griping about them.

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[Jinx]

@jammi:

so - can we assume that players are happier with the two examples of two splinter groups of zoners?

one group that is powerful, but tends to become hostile to its neighbours - and one that is "true" - and will be ignored and left in peace.

will that make the community happier?

that is a serious question actually.

explanation:

when one of the main critizisms against zoners is that they maintain a vast military power and are not willing to RP the consequences of becoming non-neutral ( meaning hostile or unfriendly ) with some factions - that can be fixed - easily.

the example - no matter how extreme it might sound - leaves players the choice of being a true zoner and totally enjoy the freedom of being neutral. - and the other faction that comes with having enemies - and the need to activly protect whats theirs - or expand into other territories even. ( basicly a mini house which is quite aggressive, cause its hostile to many )


edit:

keep in mind - this thread is there to make the community happy ( well - not in so many words, but it appears to collect opinions about faction-reformation for the sake of displaying a more positive picture of this faction [ hence, make ppl happy ] )

the above example CAN be done - but i predict a horrible mess about it - but what will not happen is to have equipment and ships simply stripped away from a faction that has grown its RP around such ships and stuff for much longer than many other factions.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[jammi]

@jammi:

so - can we assume that players are happier with the two examples of two splinter groups of zoners?

one group that is powerful, but tends to become hostile to its neighbours - and one that is "true" - and will be ignored and left in peace.

will that make the community happier?

that is a serious question actually.

Of course not. The first group would be ignored, while the second group ostracised as the current Zoners are. Simply put, a middle ground between the two groups is needed. As in, the Discovery Zoners, but without the retarded icing of Angel's creations, and the ships that were dumped on them early on in the mod's history when we were just a ship pack.

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News article library, feedback and content requests.

[Linkus]

Here's an idea.
Fix it inRP :o

Talk to the factions around Gran Canaria.
See if they want to get involved in gradually taking over GC, or destroying it or something like that.


The main problem I have with Zoner diplomacy is that it's incredibly unfriendly to anyone who proposes something that might weaken the Zoners, yet that is exactly what Zoner folks here seem to want.


Don't fix it by deleting GC or deleting all the Zoner capships.
Fix it by talking with different factions that are involved with the problem areas and coming up with inRP solutions.

The public forums, or more topics like this, are not the best way of doing such a thing.

Talk to your neighbours, come up with a solution, don't jump to the Devs or Admins.

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Facilitating the rise of robotics since 0 A.D.