What is bugged about it and why is there no mention of this in any of the bugs threads?
As for the Legate, the sheer size of the model makes any attempt at making that one useful in a roidfield pointless. It is simply too big, much like the Zoner Juggy. The turretcount and arcs are Mjol's area of expertise - although I will say that at a glance, the Legate will have more turrets able to fire sideways then the Ranseur MK2, which in a turretsteering battle would be an important factor. If you just charge headon and keep unloading guns until one side explodes then yea, the Ranseur has a leg up over the Legate.
Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.
Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.
The Legate is just fine. I suggest keeping distance and using its superior vertical strafe to evade fire from the much bigger Ranseur. Not all heavy battleships need to close to 0 distance and just keep fire pressed until one dies. The one with the right tactics always prevails.
I'd agree with rebalancing ossie to give it a second heavy, because currently it's just a sausage with 5 prims. Even a bomber has more versatility in team fight then Osiris.
But a Legate? C'mon. I have to get to very close range to it on my Bullhead just to get crosshair (under 2k, sometimes around 1600-1700m) for my primaries.
As for secondaries - it's not just the number thats important, it's their arcs as well. 8 guns with good arcs would be better then 12 guns with crappy arcs. So, could you please tell how much guns are firing in each direction (up/down/forward/backward/left/right and on diagonal axis as well), after you get 360 degree cover with flaks (usually 2 are required for that)
Making a case on the amount of turrets alone without taking into account how many of them are class 9/10 is so 4.85... You simply can't argue that Ranseur is superior because it has more secondary turrets. Could the Ranseur actually need those because of its length?
Anyway, Blodo is pretty much spot on. Use its shape well and you'll be surprised at what that thing can do.
' Wrote:I'd agree with rebalancing ossie to give it a second heavy, because currently it's just a sausage with 5 prims. Even a bomber has more versatility in team fight then Osiris.
Have you tried one as a running support BS, loaded with 5 pulse cannons and a mortar? Won't do any good in a one on one, but damn, it can turn the tide in some cap battles by making sure that mortar salvos actually connect to the hull... It's relatively small size combined with the clustered positioning of the light hardpoints make multi-flakking deadly on this puppy, too. It's a niche ship now, but definately with potential. I speak from experience.
Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.
Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.
' Wrote:What is bugged about it and why is there no mention of this in any of the bugs threads?
As for the Legate, the sheer size of the model makes any attempt at making that one useful in a roidfield pointless. It is simply too big, much like the Zoner Juggy. The turretcount and arcs are Mjol's area of expertise - although I will say that at a glance, the Legate will have more turrets able to fire sideways then the Ranseur MK2, which in a turretsteering battle would be an important factor. If you just charge headon and keep unloading guns until one side explodes then yea, the Ranseur has a leg up over the Legate.
But we don't get to use our Dreadnought because we're always stuck in asteroids, wherever we go. I'm not a fan of the Cruiser model either, to be honest.
Perhaps a rework could be possible when your workload lessens a little? I'm no designer, but I'd help any way I could.
' Wrote:I'd agree with rebalancing ossie to give it a second heavy, because currently it's just a sausage with 5 prims. Even a bomber has more versatility in team fight then Osiris.
But a Legate? C'mon. I have to get to very close range to it on my Bullhead just to get crosshair (under 2k, sometimes around 1600-1700m) for my primaries.
As for secondaries - it's not just the number thats important, it's their arcs as well. 8 guns with good arcs would be better then 12 guns with crappy arcs. So, could you please tell how much guns are firing in each direction (up/down/forward/backward/left/right and on diagonal axis as well), after you get 360 degree cover with flaks (usually 2 are required for that)
A second heavy would be appreciated, seeing as that is the only effective battleship we can use.
' Wrote:Making a case on the amount of turrets alone without taking into account how many of them are class 9/10 is so 4.85... You simply can't argue that Ranseur is superior because it has more secondary turrets. Could the Ranseur actually need those because of its length?
Anyway, Blodo is pretty much spot on. Use its shape well and you'll be surprised at what that thing can do.
Legate is huge..?
' Wrote:Have you tried one as a running support BS, loaded with 5 pulse cannons and a mortar? Won't do any good in a one on one, but damn, it can turn the tide in some cap battles by making sure that mortar salvos actually connect to the hull... It's relatively small size combined with the clustered positioning of the light hardpoints make multi-flakking deadly on this puppy, too. It's a niche ship now, but definately with potential. I speak from experience.
And all the time, we can't effectively use the Dreadnought. Osiris SHOULD be a supportive ship, but it becomes our damage dealer, so niche loadouts become ineffective.
Its just painful; everybody changes their roleplay to be able to kill us, and we can't fight back effectively.
' Wrote:Have you tried one as a running support BS, loaded with 5 pulse cannons and a mortar? Won't do any good in a one on one, but damn, it can turn the tide in some cap battles by making sure that mortar salvos actually connect to the hull... It's relatively small size combined with the clustered positioning of the light hardpoints make multi-flakking deadly on this puppy, too. It's a niche ship now, but definately with potential. I speak from experience.
Pulses are of a very... questionable effeciency in the fleet engagements. battleship shield usually lasts few seconds in those.
As a result, you won't even have means to drain your powercore, because lone mortar drains less or exactly same amount as osiris powercore restores. Same goes for missile, but it's even worse there, because it drains only half of energy regen, deals little damage and is easy to evade with it's Refire Rate.
Combined with 5 pulses, that will significantly harm your capabilities of dealing hull damage.
Single mortar, or single missile are of very, very limited usefulness. Even with hit'n'run very long range warfare tactic, that your proposed setup is supposed to do.
Even very un-versatile Mako and Togo battleships, while belonging to same class (i'd say Togo is even lighter. by size), still have higher versatility then Osiris. Yes, they do have only 2 primaries shooting backwards, and they have to, preferably, install anti-cap weaponry (Cerbs/Mortars) on their heavy slots, because they can't combat heavier battleships otherwise, but still they have a better choice of possible setups.
IMHO.
' Wrote:A second heavy would be appreciated, seeing as that is the only effective battleship we can use.
Legate is huge..?
From the viewpoint of an active Gamma raiding capwhore and Bullhead user, I wouldn't call it's totally bad. It definitely can make a use of it's 4 forward firing prims combined with 300k power regen (not just for firepower, but for versatility. *cough* rmbs...*cough*), it has a very weird hull and shape, that sometimes makes you miss it with BS prims when you fire at it at certain angles, and just my experience - when one is under Legate's fire, in a kiting bullhead, he usually losses way more b/b, then against ossie. Partially to that damned huge size, that breaks your aim and forces you to come closer.
As for it's secondaries, I really can't say, didn't fly with it enough. but again, how many guns shoot in different directions after you install flaks that can cover 360 degree sphere?
Someone mentioned a CRAP ship line and CRAP nerfed weapons? He is right, cuz this is NERFsair!
PS: I havent tried all turrets arc yet, as I dont have much time. But I was informed that all 20 turrets of Ranseur can fire forwards, while Legate has only 17. And they have the same amount of side-firing ones.
Oh, quit your incessant whining Cyber. The Sair cap turrets are among the highest DPS in the game, superior to that of their primary enemies. The Ranseur has more -light- turrets firing forward, come back to me when you've got the count of class 9 and class 10 turrets these things can fire in each direction. Those are the ONLY turrets important in a cap vs cap fight.
The -only- valid complaint I heared in here is the lack of a second heavy on the Ossie. An issue I've raised with our balance lead, Mjolnir, and is being looked into.
The Legate is big, has a crapload of guns and as a result doesn't work in Roidfields. Same thing with ANY superheavy cap (Cast Ranseur, Zoner Juggy, Kus Dread, Rheiny BS). Outside of roidfields it's a force to be reckoned with. Most cap engagements in Gamma happen in clear space in Crete's proximity.
[Edit] Another complaint I can deduce is that very long models have issue with weapon ranges and roid navigation. Solution to that is to replace the models with something a LOT smaller, which would mean less turrets and less power. It is something I would be in favor of however, those huge, long models carry some other issues to them. Limiting capships to about 90% of the RMBS length would be a solution, although wide caps would still have issues with roidfields. Model size is a factor in balance so changing those cannot be done lightly.
Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.
Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.
' Wrote:Oh, quit your incessant whining Cyber. The Sair cap turrets are among the highest DPS in the game, superior to that of their primary enemies. The Ranseur has more -light- turrets firing forward, come back to me when you've got the count of class 9 and class 10 turrets these things can fire in each direction. Those are the ONLY turrets important in a cap vs cap fight.
The -only- valid complaint I heared in here is the lack of a second heavy on the Ossie. An issue I've raised with our balance lead, Mjolnir, and is being looked into.
The Legate is big, has a crapload of guns and as a result doesn't work in Roidfields. Same thing with ANY superheavy cap (Cast Ranseur, Zoner Juggy, Kus Dread, Rheiny BS). Outside of roidfields it's a force to be reckoned with. Most cap engagements in Gamma happen in clear space in Crete's proximity.
[Edit] Another complaint I can deduce is that very long models have issue with weapon ranges and roid navigation. Solution to that is to replace the models with something a LOT smaller, which would mean less turrets and less power. It is something I would be in favor of however, those huge, long models carry some other issues to them. Limiting capships to about 90% of the RMBS length would be a solution, although wide caps would still have issues with roidfields. Model size is a factor in balance so changing those cannot be done lightly.
Most people aren't stupid enough to take to open space when we have Legates around; if that happens, its when they are virtually alone. As soon as our Dread comes into play, it becomes a Malvada/O41 fight, wherein the only option we have for countering large caps is the Osiris(aside from bombers, which aren't the topic). Cruisers are usually ineffective because of size, rocks and lack of agility.
The heavy house military ships you've mentioned have the luxury of tradelanes and more open system; we are surrounded by rocks wherever we go(Theta, Kappa, Lambda, O41, O5). Also, the Juggernaut in theory shouldn't be anywhere near as used. Afaik, Ranseur has similar agility to the Osiris, last I looked on FlStat, although I may be mistaken.
As it stands, and we've seen from bomber/gunboats, agility is king, and we have none of that; that's okay, its how the ships were designed, but it puts us at a distinct disadvantage, and when you have as many enemies as us, it becomes somewhat tedious.
I wouldn't mind a rework of the ship line; bomber, cruiser and dreadnought mainly, although the LF and Gladiator seem a little disused(size and weakness respectively). I'm not a designer, but I'd do what I could personally to help out.
A rework of the shape, maybe thinner and more rounded would help in asteroids; would fit with the bull's horns style design, since it could act as a rounded 'head', if you like.
The trouble is, I suppose, finding someone willing to go through the design and balance process. In the mean-time, I'll have fun with some other caps and use my Osiris when I need to.
