This post is a split from the LN - IMG event thread, and serves as a platform for further discussion.
After the whole action IMG looses nothing while LN get something while the Gallics are the bigger looser. Interesting.
Why you does not just declare Freeport 4 Freeport and allow it to be dockable to any part of the conflict?
You say that this make no sense, for me your actions make no sense since it is FREEPort after all, not IMG HQ.
In general if IMG likes to pull such stunts what stops me to park clocked GRN Liner filled with some spy equipment to record this fine event and report everything to the lovely gallic king, making some nice RP/OORP mess that results total wiping of IMG from Taos by bunch of unhappy Valor fleets?
In the style of the stupid Breton-Rheinland war? Why you insist to create negative tensions and OORP problems with your actions?
The reason why the players are not allowed to do such things is because everyone wants to play his power card without caring about the possible negative for his side consequences.
A way more wise course of action is to consult such decisions first in private with devs first and with the faction leaders of the involved factions second. When all of those parties reach agreement then you can go in pubic with such event.
IMG and LN cannot do such thing alone because in some ways it harms the GRN RP.
If the Devs/Admins think that GRN should not be in Magellan, it could be fixed via their ID, it is not up to LN and IMG to make such decision. I guess that the best course of action is to make FP4 Freelancer base, so none can complain about anything.
Anyway it is Dev-related issue, not IMG/LN issue.
You are bunch of experienced players that know how disco rolls and what factions can do and cannot do, this is weird and unexpected move that opens can full of worms. Such pathetic powergaming attempt backed up by 3 official factions is really sad thing to watch.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
Quote:In general if IMG likes to pull such stunts what stops me to park clocked GRN Liner filled with some spy equipment to record this fine event and report everything to the lovely gallic king, making some nice RP/OORP mess that results total wiping of IMG from Taos by bunch of unhappy Valor fleets?
For one...I'm assuming with the level of secrecy in this operation, to any outside observer it would look like a LN takeover of Freeport 4. Also, I'm assuming any GRN Liner that was in the vicinity of FP4 when it is attacked would also be attacked by the Liberty forces...and probably destroyed. So, it's doubtful any such message would make it.
What exactly are the negative tensions in this action? It makes very much sense inRP, and it prevents GRN from having a forward operating base that close to Liberty. If GRN wants to raid Magellan, they still could. They'd just have to do it from Leeds. What's the problem there? Certainly no different than what they were doing to Leeds from Edinburgh/Tau-31 in 4.86, right?
Quote:IMG and LN cannot do such thing alone because in some ways it harms the GRN RP.
There. Players does not have the right to assume things that have direct long term game play impact.
On the same way of thoughts I can assume that my hypothetical liner
have state of art spying equipment and cloaking device so I managed to record all of the said secret talks.
Or even more idiotic assumption of mine- I bring Valor to Manhattan shoot it twice with my forward gun and then I assume that the planet is destroyed and run to devs to implement my assumption in-game.
Who would be one to judge that my RP/Assumption is better then the LN/IMG one or otherwise?
It is Dev task, otherwise everyone and his dog would do PowerRPed assumptions about their factions, and if those assumptions are actually implemented every single faction would be the Sirius most powerful/with the best ships etc. I guess you catch my drift.
It is called powergaming this is the main reason why the factions/players have no means to change otherwise technically possible things like reputations or base docking permits.
(10-15-2013, 07:00 PM)Highland Laddie Wrote: How, exactly? Can you be more precise?
Things that have long term direct impact on the server game play without the option of the affected to counter it like base ownerships or rephacks, IDs etc cannot be done only by Players/Factions decision. Player bases does not come into this because the players have the option to destroy it, same as shooting ships etc.
Factions and players may propose the said changes but they have no right to enforce them. Devs are the ones that process the faction/players proposals/submissions and decide if and how to implement them in-game.
(10-15-2013, 05:33 PM)Jack_Henderson Wrote: In the name of Sarah and myself, I request the Admin team to change the IFF of Freeport 4 to Liberty Navy after the event and when Gallia has been pushed out of Leeds, back to IMG.
Every faction leader knows that- each mod version the devs ask the faction leadership about proposals/submissions concerning the faction.
In general I am not against the RP idea behind it because it could make sense for IMG/LN factions but the way that they try to enforce it quite wrong.
That is the reason to find the whole thing extremely lame- posted by experienced faction leaders and ex-admin, both should know better.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
(10-15-2013, 06:08 PM)Govedo13 Wrote: it is FREEPort after all, not IMG HQ.
You know, meeting a good amount of lolwuts thinking by the same philosophy led me to ask Echo to rename Perpignan Freeport to Perpignan Spaceport. Like... who cares if Roussillon is a top secret home system of The Council, and thus Perpignan is a Council base (not Zoner!), because it is in it's name that it is FREEPort after all, not Council HQ... right? Well, guess what, Perpignan is as much a Council base as Planet Toulouse is. And then Freeport 4 is as much an IMG base (not for long though) as much Aland is.
(10-15-2013, 07:39 PM)Govedo13 Wrote: It is called powergaming this is the main reason why the factions/players have no means to change otherwise technically possible things like reputations or base docking permits.
Good thing it is not you who determine what is powergaming and what is not. If Official GRN players got anything against this event, they will comment on it. If admins and/or devs got anything against this event, they also will comment on it. So far I only see your massive wall of qq about powergaming and conspiracies... not that I'm surprised or anything...
(10-15-2013, 07:39 PM)Govedo13 Wrote: Factions and players may propose the said changes but they have no right to enforce them. Devs are the ones that process the faction/players proposals/submissions and decide if and how to implement them in-game.
Point me where any non-Dev member of the community tried to enforce anything on anybody. Somehow I only see a request towards Admins, but your eagle-eyes must have spotted something mine didn't.
(10-15-2013, 07:39 PM)Govedo13 Wrote: Every faction leader knows that- each mod version the devs ask the faction leadership about proposals/submissions concerning the faction.
In general I am not against the RP idea behind it because it could make sense for IMG/LN factions but the way that they try to enforce it quite wrong.
Nothing is enforced (yet), this is just what you described, a proposition, a request, coated with an event, which will happen regardless of the impact of the preset outcome. If Admins say nay, the Freeport stays an IMG station... Chill.
(10-15-2013, 06:08 PM)Govedo13 Wrote: After the whole action IMG looses nothing while LN get something while the Gallics are the bigger looser. Interesting.
Gallics have to lose storywise anyway. Having them establish a foothold in Magellan would be stupid, if the story says that they are pushed back anyway. T
Their ID does not even allow Magellan raids, but still FP4 evolved as a (fun)-pew base during the pre-rollback pews. It was cool fun. But not what rp should be like. So I let it go for the pre-rollback time and now we play it the way it should be played in my opinion.
Quote:Why you does not just declare Freeport 4 Freeport and allow it to be dockable to any part of the conflict?
Bc... lolwuttiness. QQ by every side. It will make my head explode. FR5 requests and sanctions. Nope. Been there. Had that. Not gonna happen.
Quote:You say that this make no sense, for me your actions make no sense since it is FREEPort after all, not IMG HQ.
It is an IMG station.
And due to roleplay there will be a shift in power.
It's... just roleplay.
And it makes sense.
Quote:In general if IMG likes to pull such stunts what stops me to park clocked GRN Liner filled with some spy equipment to record this fine event and report everything to the lovely gallic king, making some nice RP/OORP mess that results total wiping of IMG from Taos by bunch of unhappy Valor fleets?
First: Faction Rules that not allow you at the event. Destructive gameplay is not wanted.
Second: You will not find any hint of "this being a ruse" in the event. People will die in this, because no one but LN HQ and IMG HQ know it.
Quote:Why you insist to create negative tensions and OORP problems with your actions?
???
I am keeping exactly that from happening. If GRN decided to push IMG into opening FP4 to them, IMG would suffer irply. And I play against that. What is wrong?
Quote:A way more wise course of action is to consult such decisions first in private with devs first and with the faction leaders of the involved factions second. When all of those parties reach agreement then you can go in pubic with such event.
Admins have been informed.
They decide about it in the last instance.
But as the rp makes sense and as the participants reached an agreement, I do not think that there is much that would say: "No, you cannot!"
Quote:IMG and LN cannot do such thing alone because in some ways it harms the GRN RP.
It's roleplay.
It's my base.
I can roleplay with it.
As long as I do not create any mess (which I don't), it will likely not be a problem.
I actually avoid a whole field of new stupidity by doing this and sparing everybody a lot of QQ, rage and headache.
Quote:Such pathetic powergaming attempt backed up by 3 official factions is really sad thing to watch.
3? No. Only LN and IMG. Sarah and me. Blame us. And... we'll see. Admins have the last word on this. And they have been informed.
How about you relax and just allow roleplay to have on-server consequences for once?
(10-15-2013, 06:08 PM)Govedo13 Wrote: After the whole action IMG looses nothing while LN get something while the Gallics are the bigger looser. Interesting.
Why you does not just declare Freeport 4 Freeport and allow it to be dockable to any part of the conflict?
You say that this make no sense, for me your actions make no sense since it is FREEPort after all, not IMG HQ.
The IMG own the base and as such can determine what happens with it, as long as all affected parties are in agreement. This is a roleplay server, not a static nothing ever changes server.
(10-15-2013, 06:08 PM)Govedo13 Wrote: In general if IMG likes to pull such stunts what stops me to park clocked GRN Liner filled with some spy equipment to record this fine event and report everything to the lovely gallic king, making some nice RP/OORP mess that results total wiping of IMG from Taos by bunch of unhappy Valor fleets?
Because without consulting the relevant people (owners of the base, anyone else affected by the roleplay) that would be considered powergaming and would warrant a ban, as well as seeing your so called roleplay (OORP griefing because you don't like it when people try to change things) totally ignored.
(10-15-2013, 06:08 PM)Govedo13 Wrote: In the style of the stupid Breton-Rheinland war? Why you insist to create negative tensions and OORP problems with your actions?
The reason why the players are not allowed to do such things is because everyone wants to play his power card without caring about the possible negative for his side consequences.
A way more wise course of action is to consult such decisions first in private with devs first and with the faction leaders of the involved factions second. When all of those parties reach agreement then you can go in pubic with such event.
IMG and LN cannot do such thing alone because in some ways it harms the GRN RP.
If the Devs/Admins think that GRN should not be in Magellan, it could be fixed via their ID, it is not up to LN and IMG to make such decision. I guess that the best course of action is to make FP4 Freelancer base, so none can complain about anything.
Anyway it is Dev-related issue, not IMG/LN issue.
You are bunch of experienced players that know how disco rolls and what factions can do and cannot do, this is weird and unexpected move that opens can full of worms. Such pathetic powergaming attempt backed up by 3 official factions is really sad thing to watch.
And that's where you're wrong. The devteam is not going to stop anyone's roleplay as long as it is agreed upon with both parties and the admin team, which it has been.
I should also remind you that during the "stupid Rheinland-Breton war", it was the admins who changed the base ownership of the Westfallen, not the devteam.
If you want everything to stay the same with things only advancing once every mod update, then you might consider finding somewhere else to play. There isn't anything wrong with what's taking place here.
If anyone wishes to be involved, they can certainly request involvement from both faction leaders in private.
(10-15-2013, 09:07 PM)Durandal Wrote: Because without consulting the relevant people (owners of the base, anyone else affected by the roleplay) that would be considered powergaming and would warrant a ban, as well as seeing your so called roleplay (OORP griefing because you don't like it when people try to change things) totally ignored.
This is what I meant by the example. With this action IMG/LN are OORP griefing about GRN in Magellan. The perfect solution is to set the Freeport to Freelancer IFF till the GRN step back- so none of the sides is OORP/RP griefed.
Giving the base to LN would bring the next step- GRN OORP grieving at IMG/LN, wrapped with nice story and some nice reasons etc stuff just to get back their portion of "lost" pixels.
Such things does not create anything good, they create problems and tension in the Community. A way better solution would be to go to Devs/Admins and ask them what they think about GRN in Magellan, if they oppose this they could just simply and quietly
fix the GRN ID removing Magellan from the ZoI since it is gray area now.
After the beta many people played on both sides in the Magellan fights, now with this RP action the GRN side would be out there for blood aiming at the IMG people OORPly trying to wrap it in some nice RP. I personally played on the both sides so I know that both sides fought those fights "to win"even if there was nothing real to win but only pixels.
This server never was about hardcore RP or RP consequences,even if I personally would love more of those twists there are always people that fight over the right to "own" some portion of pixels.
Hell there are a lot of people that cannot cope with premade little pixel redistribution every 2 years, let alone stuff like that.
The current people in power were right to go in the middle way like they made with the Outcasts so I hope they do the same here.
Give the FP to LN but drop something in the GRN Plate on second separate event for retribution so none would be offended and would start the OORP based RP witch-hunt.
Knowing how paranoid IMG faction could be based on 3-4 people pirating them frequently guess what it would be when the whole bunch of GRN players start to stalk them and watch them closely...
(10-15-2013, 09:07 PM)Durandal Wrote: And that's where you're wrong. The devteam is not going to stop anyone's roleplay as long as it is agreed upon with both parties and the admin team, which it has been.
I cannot be wrong on something that was not mentioned in the initial post,taking it down on the same level of my hypothetical lolwut example.
(10-15-2013, 05:33 PM)Jack_Henderson Wrote: But this roleplay is not about winning pvp or losing it, as the outcome is pre-determined: the Freeport will be taken by the LN.
This is not Admin nor Dev statement but player one right?
So what makes this statement more or less lolwut and less powergaming then my lolwut powergaming example?
Even if agreed this delivers the wrong message. The right thing to do such changes is via server announcements made by the staff.
I said actually the same in my first post about this topic:
(10-15-2013, 06:08 PM)Govedo13 Wrote: A way more wise course of action is to consult such decisions first in private with devs first and with the faction leaders of the involved factions second. When all of those parties reach agreement then you can go in pubic with such event.
IMG and LN cannot do such thing alone because in some ways it harms the GRN RP.
If the Devs/Admins think that GRN should not be in Magellan, it could be fixed via their ID, it is not up to LN and IMG to make such decision.
So better read my posts next time before you comment.
Also when we are at the topic I guess it is the best time to make some clear written rules-set that covers such things,so no party can feel griefed or ignored because the party is at the receiving side of X RP/Action/Twist whatever.
The most fair solution is to roll the dice like it is made in many other board games.
Another hypothetical scenario about this could be GRN and LN in big fight over the FP. You get the leaders to roll the dice. The one that wins get the price of the event.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
If this rp makes you "grieved"... you haven't been grieved for real in Disco.
That's all I am going to say.
I simply do not find any relevance in your protest against a consensual, irply logical, roleplayed solution to an ingame problem.
I cannot be griefed in real because I cannot care less nowadays,however there are tons of people that care.
If you put the said people in 2 separate groups based on the things that they care about in the same community you open nice can of worms. As I mentioned the both parties involved cared a lot in the beta phase fights if they are about loose or win.
With this move you give advantage to one of the parties so it is logical to predict that the other party would be upset and would look for retribution/griefing back/bad blood things. This is from the RP-logic-OORP perspective.
The other side can find the same solution that includes Valors forward guns at the same base reaching the same result for the other team- this is the whole point that you so terribly miss.
From the Organisation/Rules perspective I already mentioned why this approach is not right, combine that with the people on the other side that care about loosing "pixels" and you create hell of a mess by trying to avoid a mess.
I just try to look at the things from rather neutral perspective.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)