Alright, well, i'm just going to ask that all the bretonians take a moment to really think before they respond with their patriotic craziness, i'm about to address a serious problem with how Bretonia's post-war story is being handled. I'll make a proposal toward the end over what should happen instead for general discussion after I get the bulk of the massive errors out of the way.
"now, regarding the rebuilding of Bretonia
A place that loses half its fleet and half its industrial might...
doesn't re-build
it finds itself with the exact same amount of military industrial concentration to support.
we are calculating Bretonia as having all of its fleets in need of some level of rebuild, varying between exposure to the fight.
But we're not really of the position that bretonia has been smashed and will be re-building for years to come. Rather, we're of the position that Bretonia is actually going more military indusrial than it was pre-war, while adjusting back from its full at war stance, re-balancing itself given the losses it sustained both in fleet and ability to make fleet."
So, this is one the stupidest things i've read in awhile. So a place that DID lose half it's fleet and more than half it's industrial might doesn't re-build, you're right. and they WOULD be rebuilding for years to come, that's how Wars work, Germany took a long ass time to rebuild after WW1 and 2, a massive space country isn't gonna be much different, with it's only surviving industry being... well, gold that has been heavily depleted over the centuries it's been mined, and a shipping platform. So you say that it doesn't re-build, so why are you having it rebuild.
Next point, Leeds was glassed, it's dead, along with everything that was on it, it's a rock. Leeds being the center of Bretonian industry to the point it literally produced massive interstellar smog clouds, is gone, forever. Second point on that, the people that lost their home due to a government failing to protect them are gonna be pissed and probably go radical, and would begin sympathizing with the angry people on Gran Canaria. So would those on New London, the planet's capital.
Now, we're talking about a house that had it's border crushed and an enemy invasion fleet press all the way to the very heart and soul of it's house, New London, it's capital, destroy it's largest ship producing facility, half it's fleet, and a stupidly large portion of the house' overall economic production, manages to get into position to Fire planet killing lasers onto the planet's surface. Relief efforts aren't gonna do jack to fix that. also leaving very large holes in the atmosphere's ozone, the climate would be f*cked.
Even if the glassing failed, it was initiated, the damage caused by those beams would be immeasurable, radiation would litter the landscape and kill thousands if not millions, at the very LEAST the entire capital city would be gone, mad max territory effectively. Now if that wasn't bad enough, let's talk about all the scrap and firing overhead, so you have novas that can miss their target and fly toward the planet's gravitational pull, explosives heavy enough to down a capital ship, that would land on the surface, so explosives, there you go, there's that, then there's downed ships that would crash land on the planet's surface, ships that would be shot down trying to exit the planet's surface to aid in the fight, and the capital class ships in orbit after being destroyed would eventually crash right into the planet, that would cause CRAZY damage to anything below, near nuclear bomb levels of damage for those that blew up, and star wars destroyer levels of damage for those that don't.
New London would hardly be habitable, and Leeds certainly isn't, everything in Leeds is gone, both mining stations, the outpost and leeds, Edinburgh is no longer under Bretonian control, and Dublin would be near dry by now, and even if it WASN'T, it wouldn't be enough to supply an entire house on it's own economically, especially with the house weakened the way it is, the Mollys and Corsairs within the region would wreak utter havoc on the local miners, the bretonian crown wouldn't be able to defend them either.
So let's assume Bretonia somehow rebuilds despite the utter lack of logic that decision represents. are it's people suddenly okay with everything that happened? You can bet your ass they wouldn't be, the only two planets left are Cambridge and Sprague, regardless of what "Devtonia" wants, this is not how the hell this would play out, and there's no way they'd be getting economic support from Rheinland during all this because it is currently in a civil war, the people are fighting each other, they'd be too damn busy with their own problems to help out someone recovering from a war when they're in the middle of their own.
Let me point out something else, as much as I despise the Coalition's addition to this mod, with their current existence, they could quite easily take Exeter from the Bretonians, the entire population of Gran Canaria has been against the Bretonians from the get go, there are Corsair and Coalition footsoldiers and spies on the surface, and the civil unrest is far too high to remain in control of them while you're IN A WAR or RECOVERING FROM A WAR, in either situation the populace would've gone absolutely nuts, Bretonia doesn't have the resources to crush a rebellion of an entire planet in it's current state. Let's not forget that the Mollies are on a non-shooting basis with the Coalition and would also help free Exeter as then the Coalition could help free Dublin on the other side, the Hessians have also shown interest in the battle for Canaria, there are far too many powerhouse factions backing the freedom of that system for it to remain under Bretonian Control.
Let's not forget the Sons of Canaria, the rebel Zoner group fighting for the planet's Independence, regardless of denouncing other zoners who stood by and watched which is entirely understandable, you have a native revolutionary group already fighting for the planet's freedom, the pressure is too great, and even if they couldn't free the planet, there would be no economic value gained from the planet while it's in such a heavy state of turmoil.
Now the last thing, How in the hell is Bretonia supporting a civil war effort in this falling apart state I.E. the imperialist regime. Cause all i'm seeing here is more "Devtonia" and abuse by the development team to push the story the way THEY want it, and not the way the PLAYERS want it, there might be a few players who agree with you that the story should go this way, but the problem is, is that there is no logical way for such a damaged house to suddenly pull all these numbers unless the overlords of the mod will them into existence, which leaves most of us quite annoyed, and was the same thing Durandal and Xalrok were accused of doing to begin with, and why they were so hated by the community.
So now that i'm done with all that, I'm not a rheinland player, bretonian player, gallic player, this is an unbiased argument from a person who plays a Rogue, some might say this is none of my business, doesn't matter. I laid out the logic for you to discuss, so discuss away.
My proposal is simple, the logical thing that would happen to Bretonia in this state is for it to fall apart and become a lawless territory, Crown Loyalists/Remnants, survivors, pirates, what not. It really would not look much different than what happened to Gallia post-war, there would be a hell of a lot of disagreements leading to a redefinition of territory and borders.
Just my thoughts on the matter, what do you all think.
(04-23-2020, 09:35 PM)Hemlocke Wrote: Alright, well, i'm just going to ask that all the bretonians take a moment to really think before they respond with their patriotic craziness, i'm about to address a serious problem with how Bretonia's post-war story is being handled. I'll make a proposal toward the end over what should happen instead for general discussion after I get the bulk of the massive errors out of the way.
"now, regarding the rebuilding of Bretonia
A place that loses half its fleet and half its industrial might...
doesn't re-build
it finds itself with the exact same amount of military industrial concentration to support.
we are calculating Bretonia as having all of its fleets in need of some level of rebuild, varying between exposure to the fight.
But we're not really of the position that bretonia has been smashed and will be re-building for years to come. Rather, we're of the position that Bretonia is actually going more military indusrial than it was pre-war, while adjusting back from its full at war stance, re-balancing itself given the losses it sustained both in fleet and ability to make fleet."
So, this is one the stupidest things i've read in awhile. So a place that DID lose half it's fleet and more than half it's industrial might doesn't re-build, you're right. and they WOULD be rebuilding for years to come, that's how Wars work, Germany took a long ass time to rebuild after WW1 and 2, a massive space country isn't gonna be much different, with it's only surviving industry being... well, gold that has been heavily depleted over the centuries it's been mined, and a shipping platform. So you say that it doesn't re-build, so why are you having it rebuild.
Next point, Leeds was glassed, it's dead, along with everything that was on it, it's a rock. Leeds being the center of Bretonian industry to the point it literally produced massive interstellar smog clouds, is gone, forever. Second point on that, the people that lost their home due to a government failing to protect them are gonna be pissed and probably go radical, and would begin sympathizing with the angry people on Gran Canaria. So would those on New London, the planet's capital.
Now, we're talking about a house that had it's border crushed and an enemy invasion fleet press all the way to the very heart and soul of it's house, New London, it's capital, destroy it's largest ship producing facility, half it's fleet, and a stupidly large portion of the house' overall economic production, manages to get into position to Fire planet killing lasers onto the planet's surface. Relief efforts aren't gonna do jack to fix that. also leaving very large holes in the atmosphere's ozone, the climate would be f*cked.
Even if the glassing failed, it was initiated, the damage caused by those beams would be immeasurable, radiation would litter the landscape and kill thousands if not millions, at the very LEAST the entire capital city would be gone, mad max territory effectively. Now if that wasn't bad enough, let's talk about all the scrap and firing overhead, so you have novas that can miss their target and fly toward the planet's gravitational pull, explosives heavy enough to down a capital ship, that would land on the surface, so explosives, there you go, there's that, then there's downed ships that would crash land on the planet's surface, ships that would be shot down trying to exit the planet's surface to aid in the fight, and the capital class ships in orbit after being destroyed would eventually crash right into the planet, that would cause CRAZY damage to anything below, near nuclear bomb levels of damage for those that blew up, and star wars destroyer levels of damage for those that don't.
New London would hardly be habitable, and Leeds certainly isn't, everything in Leeds is gone, both mining stations, the outpost and leeds, Edinburgh is no longer under Bretonian control, and Dublin would be near dry by now, and even if it WASN'T, it wouldn't be enough to supply an entire house on it's own economically, especially with the house weakened the way it is, the Mollys and Corsairs within the region would wreak utter havoc on the local miners, the bretonian crown wouldn't be able to defend them either.
So let's assume Bretonia somehow rebuilds despite the utter lack of logic that decision represents. are it's people suddenly okay with everything that happened? You can bet your ass they wouldn't be, the only two planets left are Cambridge and Sprague, regardless of what "Devtonia" wants, this is not how the hell this would play out, and there's no way they'd be getting economic support from Rheinland during all this because it is currently in a civil war, the people are fighting each other, they'd be too damn busy with their own problems to help out someone recovering from a war when they're in the middle of their own.
Let me point out something else, as much as I despise the Coalition's addition to this mod, with their current existence, they could quite easily take Exeter from the Bretonians, the entire population of Gran Canaria has been against the Bretonians from the get go, there are Corsair and Coalition footsoldiers and spies on the surface, and the civil unrest is far too high to remain in control of them while you're IN A WAR or RECOVERING FROM A WAR, in either situation the populace would've gone absolutely nuts, Bretonia doesn't have the resources to crush a rebellion of an entire planet in it's current state. Let's not forget that the Mollies are on a non-shooting basis with the Coalition and would also help free Exeter as then the Coalition could help free Dublin on the other side, the Hessians have also shown interest in the battle for Canaria, there are far too many powerhouse factions backing the freedom of that system for it to remain under Bretonian Control.
Let's not forget the Sons of Canaria, the rebel Zoner group fighting for the planet's Independence, regardless of denouncing other zoners who stood by and watched which is entirely understandable, you have a native revolutionary group already fighting for the planet's freedom, the pressure is too great, and even if they couldn't free the planet, there would be no economic value gained from the planet while it's in such a heavy state of turmoil.
Now the last thing, How in the hell is Bretonia supporting a civil war effort in this falling apart state I.E. the imperialist regime. Cause all i'm seeing here is more "Devtonia" and abuse by the development team to push the story the way THEY want it, and not the way the PLAYERS want it, there might be a few players who agree with you that the story should go this way, but the problem is, is that there is no logical way for such a damaged house to suddenly pull all these numbers unless the overlords of the mod will them into existence, which leaves most of us quite annoyed, and was the same thing Durandal and Xalrok were accused of doing to begin with, and why they were so hated by the community.
So now that i'm done with all that, I'm not a rheinland player, bretonian player, gallic player, this is an unbiased argument from a person who plays a Rogue, some might say this is none of my business, doesn't matter. I laid out the logic for you to discuss, so discuss away.
My proposal is simple, the logical thing that would happen to Bretonia in this state is for it to fall apart and become a lawless territory, Crown Loyalists/Remnants, survivors, pirates, what not. It really would not look much different than what happened to Gallia post-war, there would be a hell of a lot of disagreements leading to a redefinition of territory and borders.
Just my thoughts on the matter, what do you all think.
Also the fact that Bretonia must have a HUGE war debt to Liberty since Liberty basicallcally saved bretonia and sacrificed how many personnel and ships
I rarely read walls of text, but as someone specifically interested in Bretonian history and in role-playing greedy, scheming, pragmatic space British colonialists, and a student of History iRL, I made the effort to skim through this.
There's a good number of factual errors and really a lot of assumptions, but they aren't too important and I won't mention them unless you ask me. Walls of text, when written quickly and in emotional fervour rather than with a clear plan tend to look like that anyways. However, I agree with the general point, if it is what I believe to have discerned. This is one way the story could have taken. I consider it more realistic that Bretonia and the Gallic Confederacy become failed states at civil war than Rheinland, but less obvious events have got us where we are. This is not a necessary sequence of events, but it is a possible one. The storyline is pliable and any arguments can be invented to justify any kind of development, if it is needed. The question is, would this be more fun than what we have now and what is currently planned? Why would it? Or why not?
(04-23-2020, 10:08 PM)Thunderer Wrote: I rarely read walls of text, but as someone specifically interested in Bretonian history and in role-playing greedy, scheming, pragmatic space British colonialists, and a student of History iRL, I made the effort to skim through this.
There's a good number of factual errors and really a lot of assumptions, but they aren't too important and I won't mention them unless you ask me. Walls of text, when written quickly and in emotional fervour rather than with a clear plan tend to look like that anyways. However, I agree with the general point, if it is what I believe to have discerned. This is one way the story could have taken. I consider it more realistic that Bretonia and the Gallic Confederacy become failed states at civil war than Rheinland, but less obvious events have got us where we are. This is not a necessary sequence of events, but it is a possible one. The storyline is pliable and any arguments can be invented to justify any kind of development, if it is needed. The question is, would this be more fun than what we have now and what is currently planned? Why would it? Or why not?
I'm going to ask for specifics, just because I would like to know them.
I don't want to throw my 50 pence in.
There's a underlying problem of forced progression vs natural progression. I've been in a lot of natural progression in stories but, that's mostly about my characters and others. It's also about working with other faction leaders to make small but, effective events. These natural progressions, are things like the Pygar docking ring that happened recently and partly the Rheinland/Kusari peace which was mainly both sides being exhausted.
Now, forced progression I've seen mostly with Bretonia and more recently Liberty. It strikes me as unfair, unneeded and at times uncoordinated. There's been a small shift towards consulting faction leaders and as one I can confirm it's been better then before but still the mistakes of Bretonia have already been made and the tracks already layed down. I feel the dev team can't turn this train around and are moving forward even as the train itself is slowly showing major holes over time. Now there is a fix for this, it's to acknowledge the mistakes and halt the storyline and retool it or it's to continue but more slowly and well, fix the major plot holes that Bretonia should be much more weaker then it is.
I can see either happening, or none of it happening. I'm personally a little apathetic but, I've not really been let down by the Devs yet and I actually know a few now. I just want there to be more thoughtful directions in future. Now I do think there are interesting ideas going in Bretonia, them giving away Gran Canarian is interesting and I hope it leads to a repairing of Zoner/Bretonian relations. If Bretonia is acknowledged to be weakened from the war and flawed then they would need allies in all factions. A weakened Bretonia is interesting to groups that don't want to repair relations as well, the Mollies, Gaians, Enclave and Coalition would all welcome it. I'm sure it could be done, but it's a big pill to swallow for Bretonian players who are used for things going well.
Anyway erm, I hope things change but if they don't, well I dunno.
Quote:Now the last thing, How in the hell is Bretonia supporting a civil war effort in this falling apart state I.E. the imperialist regime. Cause all i'm seeing here is more "Devtonia" and abuse by the development team to push the story the way THEY want it, and not the way the PLAYERS want it, there might be a few players who agree with you that the story should go this way, but the problem is, is that there is no logical way for such a damaged house to suddenly pull all these numbers unless the overlords of the mod will them into existence, which leaves most of us quite annoyed, and was the same thing Durandal and Xalrok were accused of doing to begin with, and why they were so hated by the community.
I can't speak for Bretonia but the Imperial RP has been prepared for years in Rheinland. In this case the devs followed the player RP not vice versa.
Also Bretonia has vested interest in Rheinland exactly for the reasons you have outlined. They have close to no production capabilities. We are an industrial behemoth that has collapsing economy. Bretonia gives us business, we help them build in return. That's a TLDR version.
(04-23-2020, 10:08 PM)Thunderer Wrote: I rarely read walls of text, but as someone specifically interested in Bretonian history and in role-playing greedy, scheming, pragmatic space British colonialists, and a student of History iRL, I made the effort to skim through this.
There's a good number of factual errors and really a lot of assumptions, but they aren't too important and I won't mention them unless you ask me. Walls of text, when written quickly and in emotional fervour rather than with a clear plan tend to look like that anyways. However, I agree with the general point, if it is what I believe to have discerned. This is one way the story could have taken. I consider it more realistic that Bretonia and the Gallic Confederacy become failed states at civil war than Rheinland, but less obvious events have got us where we are. This is not a necessary sequence of events, but it is a possible one. The storyline is pliable and any arguments can be invented to justify any kind of development, if it is needed. The question is, would this be more fun than what we have now and what is currently planned? Why would it? Or why not?
Emotion had nothing to do with this, I simply shared what I think the events should have been based off my logical theories, I am displeased with Devtonia, but that's been going on so damn long i'm fairly jaded to it at this point, I would be interested to hear your thoughts just like Hokan that you wished to not outline initially as this is, in essence a debate, and this thread has already provided more fruit than I was expecting. I will admit however, when it comes to writing, i'm for sure not the best.
(04-23-2020, 10:15 PM)NixOlympica Wrote: I can't speak for Bretonia but the Imperial RP has been prepared for years in Rheinland. In this case the devs followed the player RP not vice versa.
Also Bretonia has vested interest in Rheinland exactly for the reasons you have outlined. They have close to no production capabilities. We are an industrial behemoth that has collapsing economy. Bretonia gives us business, we help them build in return. That's a TLDR version.
That outlines the reasoning pretty well, it had not been something I had considered, I appreciate your contribution to the thread.
Something I initially left out in the thread was... refugees... the problem I have yet to see come up anywhere, and was brought to my attention by Groshyr via PMs, there would be thousands of Bretonian and Gallic citizens leaving their home and hearth to escape war torn houses, to the Omicrons, Omegas, Taus, anywhere really, what about them?
There were no major battles on a planetside territory of Gallia. Council did some of that stuff but not a 'full-blown bombardment annihilation' so I don't know why people say it's "war-torn". There is huge political instability, Enclave, Outcasts and drop in wine quality but damage for economy? Not really.