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Syrus · 01-08-2012, 02:36 AM,

Yes, I know.

...

I still think it is underpowered, you wonder why?
Alright, let me throw some numbers at you.

Code:
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hull Dmg&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shield Dmg&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Energy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Refire&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Range&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Speed&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hull DPS&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shield DPS&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Energy/Sec&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;HDmg/Energy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;SDmg/Energy

Gallic&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;650.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 325.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2.400.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0,10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4.500&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;900&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;65.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;32.500&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 240.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0,2708&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0,1354

Hessian&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 315.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 157.500&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1.100.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0,10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4.500&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;900&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;31.500&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;15.750&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 110.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0,2864&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0,1432

Mortar&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;280.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 140.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1.200.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0,20&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4.500&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;600&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;56.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;28.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 240.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0,2333&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0,1167

Heavy Mortar&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;520.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 260.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2.500.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0,10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4.500&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;600&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;52.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;26.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 250.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0,2080&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0,1040

Liberty&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 180.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;90.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;700.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0,25&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4.050&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;900&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;45.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;22.500&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 175.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0,2571&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0,1286

Dragon&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;130.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;65.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;470.000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0,25&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4.050&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;900&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;32.500&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;16.250&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 117.500&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0,2766&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0,1383

As you can see the Hessian Forward Gun is even weaker then the cruiser forward gun/cannon. It does have good speed, an acceptable efficiency and the standard mortar-range, but the DPS is clearly lacking.
I suggest a .05 refire rate buff, which wouldn't make the weapon overpowered - it would still be weaker than a mortar - but it would make up a bit better for the missing ability to turn the weapon.

At the moment I would rather wish for another Class 10 turret instead of the gun, or one more turret being able to fire forward, because the gun just doesn't cut it.

I'm asking for the weapon to be reviewed and hope that the weapon will get the slight refire buff, to make it a bit more balanced with the mortar.

Vladimir · 01-08-2012, 02:26 PM,

I'd rather have the damage and the energy cost boosted than refire, just because forward gun is supposed to be fired rarely but hard. Otherwise i'd rather prefer a kind of super boosted mining laster with very small range, like, 1K, but high damage and 8.33 refire to look a bit like a beam, for an unique and interesting weapon to be seen around, and fitting the rp so well.

Jinx · (This post was last modified: 01-08-2012, 03:26 PM by Jinx.)

if there are serious concerns - ... :

have you conducted tests? - 6 pvp 1 vs. 1 maybe 3 on each side .... and possibly group fights?

doesn t need to be that many - but such concerns look a lot better when we can base them on some ingame experience ... from both sides of the gun

edit:

here is a size comparison of the ships you pointed out. - its HardCMP - the sizes compare "true" to each other - not distorted by the perspective.

while the gallic BB isn t quite that huge from the front - it is significantly larger from the side and the top / bottom - and also of course less agile - making its cannon a lot less efficient. - the lib cruiser is significantly smaller of course - although - not as much smaller as some might expect ( considering it is one of the smallest cruisers ) .... - in other words - the hessian BB is a rather small BB indeed.

( "really" large battleships outsize the tiny hessian BB by a lot [nomad, rheinland, zoner battleship ] )

[Image: just_a_signature_by_sjrarj-d63yjsx.png]

Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

Vito · 01-08-2012, 03:07 PM,

' Wrote:As you can see the Hessian Forward Gun is even weaker then the cruiser forward gun/cannon. It does have good speed, an acceptable efficiency and the standard mortar-range, but the DPS is clearly lacking.

Maybe because it is a Liberty cruiser gun? Isn't that how you got it, by reverse-engineering the Siege Cruiser's forward cannon?

Don't get me wrong, you can buff it all you want because I simply don't care about its stats, but that will make the RP behind it irrelevant. If anything, you should wait for .87 or at least one of the 86 updates before upgrading it

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Markam · 01-08-2012, 03:50 PM,

Comparing apples and oranges, and of course, the Valor and the Jorm will never, ever fight each other, so there is little need to compare the two guns.

The Jorm will fight Corsair, Bhunter, Rheinland military and Liberty Military, and aside from the Liberty siege cruiser (which is a destroyer not a battleship), none of those factions' ships have a forward gun.

There is also no need in asking for another turret instead of the gun, because the Battleship already has enough turrets (15, a lot for a medium Battleship).

Most comparable ships are the Liberty Dread (13 guns) and Bretonian Dunkirk (14 guns), if it can't beat/heavily damage either of those ships it might be under powered, otherwise it's fine.

Regardless, the ship is quite small, small enough to be very effective against RM BS and Legates in a kiting situation.

Vladimir · 01-08-2012, 04:33 PM,

Quote:Most comparable ships are the Liberty Dread (13 guns) and Bretonian Dunkirk (14 guns), if it can't beat/heavily damage either of those ships it might be under powered, otherwise it's fine.

That'd be funny if it wasn't sad. Did you ever take new, 4.86 one, turrets-on-battleships system into consideration? LD and BB have same number of turrets that make difference, i.e. 9 and 10 class, but 10 class turrets have better arcs. Numbers alone don't matter that much. Zoner dread has what, 24 turrets, does it mean, according to your logic, that it's gonna beat all?

But anyway. Point is that fw gun on jorm isn't really making a difference. Sure you can shoot it a few times, and even hit a bit, but with that refire, one shot per ten seconds, and that damage, not even the hm one, it's not going to change any engagement and, basically, is just an eye-candy.

Syrus · 01-08-2012, 08:49 PM,

I was mostly comparing the Hessian FWG with the BS mortars and maybe with the cruiser FWGs. To take the iRP example of the FWG being stolen Tech from Liberty:
Well then give it the higher refire. Such big ship has more power to support that.

Going 1v1 with a Dunkirk or a Liberty dread depends on one thing only:
Do they use Cerbs?
Because if they do, they WILL win. They both have 3 Class 10 forward and the Jorm only has one Class 10 and the FWG (which neither has the DPS nor the Dmg/Energy of a Cerb) forward.

If they don't have Cerbs, it will be different though. Then it depends on many other factors...

McNeo · 01-08-2012, 09:34 PM,

Shouldn't have joined the "stolen from Liberty" club, it seems.

Markam · 01-09-2012, 01:51 AM,

' Wrote:That'd be funny if it wasn't sad. Did you ever take new, 4.86 one, turrets-on-battleships system into consideration? LD and BB have same number of turrets that make difference, i.e. 9 and 10 class, but 10 class turrets have better arcs. Numbers alone don't matter that much. Zoner dread has what, 24 turrets, does it mean, according to your logic, that it's gonna beat all?

But anyway. Point is that fw gun on jorm isn't really making a difference. Sure you can shoot it a few times, and even hit a bit, but with that refire, one shot per ten seconds, and that damage, not even the hm one, it's not going to change any engagement and, basically, is just an eye-candy.

Nice rant, but again, are the Dunkirk and Liberty Dread completely and totally superior to the Jorm? Is there a balance issue where the Jorm cannot beat either of these comparable Battleships? Especially the Liberty dread, as that is a ship it comes into contention against.

Zoner dread is a heavy BS, again, completely different and ridiculous use of a straw-man.

I'm no expert on combat between these ships, but I'm not aware of any issue where the Jorm is unable to do anything against the Liberty Dread, in fact, I've seen one instance where the Jorm came out on top.

Again, to the original post, it's comparing apples and oranges, how can you say the Forward Gun is under-powered when it is compared against things that bear little resemblance, nor do they even get used against the Hessian Battleship in combat.

One final point, how long has the mod been out? Not long enough to draw conclusions. Has the capital ship balance thread even be opened yet? No, so it's a little fast to make balance rants, store them up, test them out as Jinx suggested to provide more solid evidence of imbalance (i've done it before and it brings results).

**jammi** · 01-09-2012, 02:02 AM,

' Wrote:To take the iRP example of the FWG being stolen Tech from Liberty:
Well then give it the higher refire. Such big ship has more power to support that.

1) If you reverse engineer a piece of technology, nine times out of ten, it will be less effective than the original.

2) Hessians based their battleship technology on cruiser weapon schematics.

So far as lore goes... Yeah, what McNeo said. And yes, forward cannons are basically gimmicky eye-candy. They don't do much practical good, especially when you use a battleship that gets eaten alive by its enemies if it attempts to tank them.

Forward cannon is useless in a kiting situation, and kiting is what keeps you alive against Legates and Rheinland Battleships.

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