The Economy of Loss

[Ukkoa]

Hey everybody! I thought I would make my inaugural post on the forums a good one so here I am, hopefully you think likewise.

I’m a very recent addition to the Discovery Community as I’m sure you’ve already gathered and last night I had my first instance of being involved in a PvP showdown which I ultimately lost. I raged a bit, knowing that my hard earned Bumblebee and its cargo had been destroyed. I knew that losing my ship had set me back a good amount of time. As a new player, I don’t have very many credits.

After respawning however, I noticed that the server had provided me with a new bumblebee. I hadn’t even lost the weapons or other fittings equipped previous to my destruction. The only thing missing was my 1800 units of Rice – not a huge loss – barely a loss at all.

And that’s the problem.

I feel that if a game is being utilized in the role playing experience, it should at least attempt to reflect a believable alternate reality. On a role playing server, how can any of us truly be immersed in the world and the characters we play if such an important facet of life, perhaps the most important dichotomous relationship of all, doesn’t even exist? How can you portray a character in a specific light – as a crime fighter or a serial killer if your actions fail to have any real consequences? Is it possible to be the loser in this game? Perhaps most importantly, how does the absence of this mechanism affect the way players interact with their surroundings?

(And what do you do with all of your money if you don’t have a time sink like repurchasing lost ships and equipment?)

So the tl;dr version: Would gameplay be improved if you lost your ship and all its contents upon destruction?

What are your thoughts? I feel as a new player I still have the perspective of an outsider looking in on the Discovery Community. Obviously, players who have been here for extended periods of time enjoy it a great deal. Also, if this ship replacement thing is an introductory period thing for new players and it disappears after a week or two, I apologize immensely for wasting your time.

Ukkoa

[Charos]

You should consider "death" as crippling your ship, it's easier that way.

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Remember our fallen, we are the Legion.

[Ukkoa]

You should consider "death" as crippling your ship, it's easier that way.

But it doesn't cripple your ship! That's what I mean! haha

[kikatsu]

We have rules in place instead of actual in game consequences like loosing a ship... IE you cannot encounter that player for 4 hours, which is a big consequence if you are killed on your main RP character.

Still.

You get to keep everything that is nailed to your ship, things like ammo and cargo you loose, they can sometimes be worth alot and it can be a pain to replace them, but credits are hard to make and if we all lost our ships when we died what fun would that be? I don't have much time as is to devote to grinding for credits, and I know alot of others are in the same boat.

[Dratai]

Because, it's still a game.
Games are meant to be fun.
Oh and it's still freelancer, who does the same by itself.
We have the four-hour rule in which -none- of your characters can enter said system if you die.

There's already a set of rules in place to "punish" dying.

But there's already a ton of time (not just hours, for new players, often weeks) spent just getting your economy together, why make it worse?
You buy your capital ship and get it murdered by a lone bomber or something.
And have to cash out 130.000.000+ just to get your plans rolling again?

That's...
That's just mean.

I mean I can kill a pirate to be mean, but even I could never be that mean to anyone else.

And such a thing would REALLY open up for trolls.
They could try to murder you just to cripple you, the player, economically, over and over again.

Killing the fun? You don't want that.

[Ukkoa]

Because, it's still a game.
Games are meant to be fun.
Oh and it's still freelancer, who does the same by itself.
We have the four-hour rule in which -none- of your characters can enter said system if you die.

There's already a set of rules in place to "punish" dying.

But there's already a ton of time (not just hours, for new players, often weeks) spent just getting your economy together, why make it worse?
You buy your capital ship and get it murdered by a lone bomber or something.
And have to cash out 130.000.000+ just to get your plans rolling again?

That's...
That's just mean.

I mean I can kill a pirate to be mean, but even I could never be that mean to anyone else.

And such a thing would REALLY open up for trolls.
They could try to murder you just to cripple you, the player, economically, over and over again.

Killing the fun? You don't want that.

Well I don't know if I'd go as far as to say you'd be 'killing the fun' but I definitely see where you are coming from! You don't think that if the penalty were higher, that you might take less risk when engaging your 'enemies' (from a RP perspective)? Wouldn't it make players form more cohesive strategies to avoid grievous losses like ones you've mentioned?

[kikatsu]

I like to treat every encounter in character, I don't need a system in place for that. If I am afraid that my character could die I will run away... I don't need any other incentive to make smart combat choices, just treat it like you don't want your main guy blowing up.

[jammi]

Well I don't know if I'd go as far as to say you'd be 'killing the fun' but I definitely see where you are coming from! You don't think that if the penalty were higher, that you might take less risk when engaging your 'enemies' (from a RP perspective)? Wouldn't it make players form more cohesive strategies to avoid grievous losses like ones you've mentioned?

Well, that's the thing. There is no defence against player griefing. An example - someone doesn't like you, so they and their friends log out a pair/trio of bombers where they know your trade ship will be passing through. When you enter the system, they give an unreasonable demand and blast you. That's your 5k transport vanished, with the almost 200 million credit price tag that entails.

This thread has been discussed many times over the years, with the general consensus coming out as people not wanting to have to invest in Freelancer like a second job. I know I wouldn't want to. It'd also massively tip the server in favour of the minority that sit at the top of the PvP scoreboards. Why play when you know the next ace to wander along is just going to smack you back to square one, when there's little to nothing you can do about it?

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[Dratai]

Now, I get where you're coming frim with this.
Sure it would make a whole lot more people second-guess their current choices, such as mindlessly 2 mill or die pirates. People would be more likely to hire escorts for their transports. traders wouldn't allow themselves to be murdered.

But.
Not everyone can afford that, in-game.
I know I can't.
I know also that being shut out for four hours from the only truly profitable trading route is basically "that's it for today" for me, because by then I usually have something else to do or I'm out doing something I -have- to.

I also know people don't have time towwait for it, every day, and thus just switch character to hang somewhere else.

But the only people this would really serve anything to do to are the people who go online only for PvP, such as the "give 2 mill or die" pirates.
Ergo, they would be forced to roleplay more, but they don't have the patience for that under two usual excuses "you're calling for help, I don't trust you" funny, coming from pirates, really.
The second excuse I see is "I'm a pirate, I pirated you successfully like this".
And honestly, they're not wrong.

But those are perhaps the only people it would do anything to.
Pirates would be afraid to pirate.
Traders would be afraid to trade.
Everyone else would be having a fun time doing other things...
Or killing pirates/traders because "lolpenalty"

As good of an idea this is, roleplay-wise.
Balance-wise, it is not.

[Dratai]

I like to treat every encounter in character, I don't need a system in place for that. If I am afraid that my character could die I will run away... I don't need any other incentive to make smart combat choices, just treat it like you don't want your main guy blowing up.

I agree with kikatsu here.
Roleplay servers on a game are very player-initiative.
Ergo, it's up to you to act like you're afraid of your life..
or a suicidal nut that's very lucky with the ejector seat.

edit: That said, I don't like wasting my time when trading, so I don't like being shot to bits.