' Wrote:'¦ If those people who were making the decision would have been informed that they won't be allowed to get their stuff back'¦
'¦ Faction leaders have been scammed'¦
Sounds like they lost something they can't get back. Wait, is there a Corsair somewhere who is missing his tizonas because a Reaver is using them?
Oh, I guess not. So they didn't actually stand to lose anything, because by game mechanics those guns are infinite. So someone else gained something but the elders didn't actually lose something. So what's the problem?
Ah, there it is, the percieved PVP advantage.
' Wrote:My disco mission: Obtain as many kills as possible while doing only the necessity of rp to avoid ban =]
I'm on a mystery solving roll tonight. Well, let me just ask you the one that's getting away from me. You're being shot by your own guns, that you made. So'¦ the guns are equal. So the fight is relatively fair by the stats.
' Wrote:Oh, I guess not. So they didn't actually stand to lose anything, because by game mechanics those guns are infinite. So someone else gained something but the elders didn't actually lose something. So what's the problem?
You are just dumb to totaly miss the point, or you trying to search for some compromat which is unrelated to my risen question. Anyhow, even if you would prove something right of what you are saying it doesn't effect any of my risen points.
And if things in my signature would be true, my subjective perception of things doesn't change the objective virtual reallity of the game.
The problem is that someone is actually using factions guns against the faction which grant them. And by the time then faction leaders gave up weapons they had in mind that they can strip them away, if something bad would happen. But some admins or whoever it was decided, "no you can't strip them away", cuz we must respect the rights of people who put their effort to gain them. Now it's an ok rule becouse it protects ppl, but as any right it should, no it MUST have it's limits to certain extent. And now put responsability of "roleplay" on their shoulders. WHAT? Factions leaders DID NOT KNOW. How they are in charge of something they didn't knew will happen? Seems like whoever passed such regulations made a mistake and wants to wash his hands while putting all the blame on players.
Results: Some factions doesn't give away they tech AT ALL. It's closed. Totaly. How come this encourages your roleplay atmosphere?
I dont think that tech needs not to be used against their parent faction. Some white cell requests are just for that, and people have run away with Corsair weapons before: see, SCRA. I'm actually a fan of those OORP requests, but only when they concern individuals, not other factions.
The Corsairs have always absorbed the bad end of admin decisions.
1) SCRA break alliance with Corsairs and run away with lots of del cids (after they break the alliance, no less). No admin intervention.
2) UoG (Molly faction) running around with Colada del cids on their Taiidan bombers because "debs aren't good enough", which were Puck's (leader of the UoG at the time) words. No admin intervention.
3) Corsairs get sanctioned for using debs and the, at the time civilian tiger shark, because they beat some Outcasts with them. This remained the status quo until quite recently.
4) Deb regulation relaxed but, what you give with one hand, you take with the other, and all tech permissions are locked in place, and of course the Corsairs have most to lose, as they were operating under previous rules and being generous.
If anything, it's taught a nice life lesson to every Corsair player. Don't be generous, because you always get screwed in the end. A lesson duly learned actually, as Corsair tech is totally locked down now.
All the Corsair tech grants were made under the assumption, put forth by the old rules, that they could be reclaimed if something were to go wrong. At a stroke, this power was removed. It just seems like changing the rules to screw a group of people over, but I am hardly surprised, as the Corsairs have always had this happen to them.
If you really want to make a fairer system Cannon, it shouldn't be too hard. As you can see from the Reaver request, there was nothing about shooting Corsairs with them. Of course, you can say that "they're mercenaries, of course they will use them against you" except for the fact that they were a means for the Corsairs to bind the Reavers to themselves, as the old rules facilitated quite nicely. Changing that is hardly fair, doubly so with no notice. I hope you realise how unfair you were, and give factions a means that isn't too time consuming to reclaim their stuff. This is actually the least you can do, as if the rule change had been more targetted on the people who were the problem, we would not be in this situation now.
Before, we aimed to spread Corsair tech, because we thought that people were being too tight with their stuff. The rules gave us the power to reclaim it if we needed to, so it wasn't a problem. Last I heard, generosity isn't meant to be punished. Yet, you admins did just that because Jameson couldn't stop removing people from the Outcast tech list when he got butthurt.
We are here to have fun, not to try to build a space empire. Why do you want people to lose their ships/equipment when they die? Why do you want to take away guns from someone? The truth of the matter is represented by Vanilla (where you take Liberty guns to Bretonia and are able to repair them) and by game mechanics (where guns can be repaired at any station).
Roleplay should be more about who you are, what you say, and what you do than what you use on your ship.
They have access to corsair guns so they got them on the ships which..got them.
I would make people make a list of all those which they got, and put a limit there, since inRP they obviously can't buy more. So basically only existing ones should stay in their hands when they turn their back to the people who gave them.
You want the "objective virtual reality" of the game? Here it is. Say I'm a merc. I've got tizonas. I feel contrary today so I wander past the neutron star, damaging my guns, then all the way to Freeport 10 for a drink. (That's Outcast space.) While I'm in the lounge, the northern zoner REPAIRS MY GUNS.
As a matter of fact, any base I can land on can fix them. Gallians, even.
In your first post, you asked what I (everyone) think(s.) I think you're mad these guns shot you. I think that a subconscious excuse in your mind is the real problem. I think those corsairs would've been shot regardless of the guns equipped, and the gun stats related are an unimportant detail.
You asked how some factions being "forced" to close grants benefits the community. Well. Corsair (example) tech wasn't red celled to everyone by the admins. So I dare say they were not forced. That it was a choice. And that in still having that choice, they still have their rights. So, by the admins it wasn't harmful. It was the players that created the harm (like usual.)
As it stands, all the relevant RP clicks. The supposed victims are, in fact, unharmed. So it's fine with me.
(Edit; People are getting posts in on me. I'm not on a computer and can't keep up, so I'm gonna step back and just listen for now. To McNeo in particular.)
Yes, we don't like it when "what you do" is to shoot us with our weapons.
I couldn't care less if you shoot a Corsair with some Hessian guns, but with our own guns is an insult. An insult that goes unpunished, as you'll have those guns no matter how many times you die at our hands.
Consequences are part of roleplay.
Wait, I forgot, no they're not: see, Bretonia vs Kusari + Rheinland.
' Wrote:Yes, we don't like it when "what you do" is to shoot us with our weapons.
I couldn't care less if you shoot a Corsair with some Hessian guns, but with our own guns is an insult. An insult that goes unpunished, as you'll have those guns no matter how many times you die at our hands.
Consequences are part of roleplay.
Yeah, consequences are part of roleplay. If your character or faction is foolish enough to trust a mercenary further than you can throw him, you deserve to be shot up by your own guns.
' Wrote:This is bullcrap. Having unlimited numbers of technology and using it to backstab faction that has blueprints for that technology is simply ooRP. You can't repair guns such as Tizonas without Corsair help, etc. But who cares about negative roleplay consequences that affect his/her own faction, yes?
When rules regarding safety of loans were changed they still applied to old ones, before moment of announcement.
Tech revoking rules changed and affected even old permissions.
Inconsistency in enforcing the rules. Not the first time.
' Wrote:Again, your all arguments (Beconsoda) are based on "they made a desicion, so must face the consquences" yes, I fully understand and I support such view.
BUT. If those people who were making the decision would have been informed that they won't be allowed to get their stuff back, then none of these decisions would have been made. That's what I'm talking about. Faction leaders have been scammed. And you say it's "unfair" from guys who asked stuff side. It's even more unfair from peopl who grants stuff. And as result, some leaders totaly closed all request applications.
Imagine a back in which you hace account and you bring money. Would you bring money to it, if you know that after half of the year all your property will be nationalized? .. No you wouldn't. Now imagine how would you feel if you'r entire bank account one day gets "pop" it's nationalized. You have nothing. Your property now belongs to goverment. No-one informed you, no-one talked with you, no-one consuleted with you, and then you seek justice, no-one gives 2 f... about you.
Fair?
10 pages summed up in 2 simple quotes. Yes it is not fair. I agree.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
' Wrote:Yeah, consequences are part of roleplay. If your character or faction is foolish enough to trust a mercenary further than you can throw him, you deserve to be shot up by your own guns.
Yeah, consequences are part of roleplay. If your character has a faction's guns and shoots that faction with it, then proceeds to die, he probably deserves not to have those guns anymore, given that he just lost the ship that the guns were mounted on.