Dane your Idea is the best so far but you must also consider that the zoner carrier have smaller core and less heavy slots. I guess if you keep the heavy slots and arcs you would need to deal with bots bats hull nerf and core nerf. Having medium BS(that are beasts in PvP in right hands) with carrier functions is a bit OP.
May be you have no experience with battleships but the core and one heavy slot makes really big difference in PvP. Other point is the HF BS- being heavy it is still lacking compared with House/Corsair/OC heavy battleships because it is big and have only 3 heavy slots with only 10 light slots.
If you downgrade the heavy slots then you could have also better agility but then it would be Light carrier like the Zephyr.
Other option is to bring back the old Carrier as light carrier. I guess that none would give you medium BS and Carrier. So may be you just need as faction to decide among yourselves what exactly you want, considering that you cannot have the cake and eat it at the same time. AD clearly stated that you wont get your Kronos buffed anyway. If CR asked for Medium BS and got medium BS they are lucky, I asked for medium cruiser and got destroyer arks with heavy cruiser core and bad heavy arcs for Scylla, when I asked again to make the ship with 3 heavy slots from 4 but with normal arcs i got 50 bots more and 2 by 2 identical medium arcs slapped with heavy arcs.:lol:It is really rare to get what you asked for anyway.
CR have much better line then Outcasts and comparable to the Gallics. Even if Kronos is really bad medium BS the rest of the line is just awesome.I really wish that more factions have the luck and fortune of CR in terms of ships.
About my previous post- import or not CR is there and this is not the topic.
My problem with the whole deal is that there is not clear guideline what counts for one faction to have full cruiser/BS line and what not, because it is logical that every faction wants full line even the "smallest" in RP. Because CR should not be bigger in RP then HF or Rogues or Mollys or Hogosha or Hessians or Dragons.
When some have battleships( they sux but unfortunately they are the only base killer device) and other does not have them inter faction grudges start to show around. For example the same with HF battle-cruiser, the only way to counter mass cruisers in combined fleet is to have mass cruisers in combine fleet.
You can ask HF because lacking cruiser cannot stop even weak and underdog cruiser like Scylla if spamed.
Cruisers are a way more important then battleships in 4.86 group fights because they are the only tool that kill GBs easy and fast, they can also be dangerous for snubs if proper supported. I also think that battleships should be used primary for support role because they cannot deal any dmg to snubs anymore and die a way too easy by novas.
Developers must decide who should get what and implement proper guidelines in order to stop the bad blood considering capital ships.This problem makes the topic hot, not because they are CR or import or whatever. Sadly people are not happy if other similar in size factions get stuff when their factions get nothing.
I personally think that only Houses should have battleships,base killer thing should be implemented for others and up to battle-cruisers/Geb like carriers for the rest.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
Well, I think you hit upon an important part of the disco balance - which is that Battleships now have a very real purpose as base killers.
Base's essentially become unkillable at certain core levels, and having multiple repair commodities plus platforms compounds that. While I'm not of the camp that "bases are too strong" - I do believe that Battleships are the best tool to siege bases with.
From my factions perspective, we have ONE Kronos, that we rp as a faction flagship, and in the times we've used it, it was only as support. We really don't have the numbers or money to make more, and by the rp I'm presenting for my faction (which was designed to be conciliatory in its idea), lots of Battleships doesn't make any sense.
I believe it was Snak3 that said "you can rp not having any and not have that affect anyone else" - while thats true, it does seem odd if the official faction is representing a position of economic depression, yet every indie CR has a kronos - it would indicate a very different story then the one we present.
Well if you wont spam Battleships for primary cap for fight like Hessians then it makes much more sense to take back the Zephyr as carrier or if not possible to make Kronos as Carrier. For me RP behind ship or Looks were never important as long as it could shoot stuff properly.Hel for example with the backfire CD and brutal arcs/agility is still the best cruiser around even if it is ugly as Hell. I was under the impression that Kronos fail because you cannot properly pew stuff with it.
If you would use only 2-3 of them then copy the Zoner carrier stats or around it- it is fast ship that cannot deal a lot of dmg by itself due to its core limit and 2 heavies only but it can be perfect for jumping and dock modules, it can also be good missile platform/artillery long range platform vs Heavy Battleships if you learn how to support it and how to prevent the heavy battleships to come close.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
If we had the Zephyr, then fielding multiples might be a necessity.
If the Kronos gets more dock modules and cargo with no stats change, then we'll probably make at least two to three, with each one have a specific purpose - and combat being the secondary of its intended roles.
If nothing happens, and the stats stay the same, then the Kronos will be there, and we might have two for base sieging in coro, but they would never have wide spread use.
If the ship is unbalanced, re-balance it. Don't just replace it with another un-balanced ship.
The Zephyr was chronically 'not good'.
If you spam the Kronos now, you'd need to do the same with the Zephyr, at least with its older stats.
Oh my you really have no idea about battleships.Consult with someone that have a lot of experience with them before asking stuff from Devs because you might end up by having something that you does not desire.
One light carrier combined with Snub and 2 Cruisers is a way better in pvp then 4 Heavy battleships.
You also wont get Medium battleship stats with 4 docking modules and more cargo because it would not be fair towards other factions. There is clear trade off between guns and other features like agility,modules or hull in all battleships in all classes, you cannot have the best from 2 different classes because you just want it.
Heavy battleships are good only if the enemy is retarded enough to charge them. Rest is Kitting motars missiles pulses and bug abusers with out of cruise pulses and lot of novas.
Medium Battleships are better then heavy ones because they kite better while they are able to win versus light battleship in charging.
None would give CR all around perfect in PvP battleship without drawbacks because it is not a house, so cannot have LD or Elbe as example of excellent battleships. The Dragon BS is also really nice together with zoner carrier, all other battleships have clear strengths and drawbacks.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
Fairness is a poor argument, since there are people who have better things then we do - by fairness we should have a battleship with 20 turrets and a forward gun, because gallia does.
Thats why you argue for Balance - so that two ships can be different, but each have a good chance of beating the other, assuming skill wasn't a factor.
But the Gallic battleships is utter bad in pvp with crap arcs,dodge the forward canon and the rest is easy. Breton one is a way better unless you cruise pulse abuse. This is if we totally ignore the RP behind the factions.
Thats why a guide line what different factions can get would be nice thing.
Anyway as advice- consult with people that have idea how battleships works- ask around I would advice you to ask Charos or Helo.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
I pointed out that the Kronos is very much underpowered for its enormous size, which equals the size of heavy BS (see here), before. I was told it is a counter to the Sarissa. Now, I still find that "excuse" laughable. I also heard the old CR wished for a medium BS instead of the light and sadly quite weak Carrier, the Zephyr. Sadly the Kronos lacks even more ability to survive (and fight) against anything it is supposed to fight - except MAYBE the Sarissa, which is never used.
Now don't get me wrong, I actually like the Kronos. It looks and feels like a fat BS should be. Like a heavy BS. But it isn't. The low armor and low BB (compared to other BS) kills it. The weapon count and placement on the ship is quite good though, but that doesn't make up for the rest. Other medium BS are much smaller and can therefore evade incoming fire, the Kronos can't.
A medium BS is not unfitting for the CR. They operate in asteroid-filled areas and a heavy BS is just unfitting for their economical situation. "Lighter and agile" needs to be the motto for their succes. Overpowering the superior enemies is not an option. Overall though, due to that, the CR rather relies on snub attacks, a more guerilla-like warfare. For that they need a carrier to bring the snubs closer to the enemy, not a battleship which is meant to fight off the enemies rather directly.
As my new userpic, taken from the wiki 8| , suggests - I'm very much for the reimplementation of the Zephyr. Now as a real carrier. If you ask me, even though I like the Kronos looks and all that, you can kick that one out for the Zephyr. It makes way more sense in RP for the CR to rely on a carrier plus their cruisers and snubs. Maybe even readd the Argus - but that's a different story.
The Zephyr looked better than the Kronos, and, even though it wasn't very good, still performed better under the circumstances the CR is. Not to mention what has already been mentioned above: it makes more sense for the faction and its RP.
So, yes, please, return the Zephyr. Give it a little buff from how it has been before - more armor for example - since it is quite big, make it a proper carrier with docking module slots. And if you ask me, replace the Kronos with the Zephyr again. That's my opinion about the matter.
(sadly I didn't add the Zephyr on the pic above ...)
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