Can you sanction against wall running?

[LonelyPlanet]

I'd also like to point out that since transports are designed to travel long distances, and pirate ships are designed for overpowering ships and not for traveling long distances, the pirate would run out of fuel before the transport. So any sort of "RP" justification for sanctioning transport that runs is kind of silly.

What is imaginable is that ships designed for pirating are sped up or transports slowed down via game mechanics. I wouldn't mind if that happened. There are a whole lot of other things that could be solved with game mechanics so ships are optimized for their real use more, including speed, armor, firepower, scanner range, scanner stealth, which would improve gameplay a good deal. Don't know if all of them are possible though.

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User was banned for: Karlotta alt
Time left: (Permanent)

[Mímir]

When you pirate someone, you're doing something bad to them. Some players will try to do something bad to you in return, even if it may make things a little worse for them (loss of credits or time). People are like that.

But that is the thing - you are not doing something 'bad' to them. You are providing a challenge in an otherwise challenge-free environment. You are providing a game.

This makes me think of kids in school who try to extort milk money from other kids. Some kids will fold in and give it and you won't have to do any punching, and some will rather get a bloody nose than give it willingly. That's human nature. What you're doing is calling the kids who rather get bloody noses stupid, and you're even asking the teachers to punish them because your fists hurt from all the punching you say you have to do.

But again, you really shouldn't take it personally. I don't know how to get that point across. In Battlefield 4, do you take it personal when some dude kills you? You seem to make it out to be about personalities, bullying and whatnot, when it isn't - personally I would enjoy playing the lawful side as much as I do unlawful, if only there'd be more unlawfuls to interact and play the game with. Also this discussion isn't about putting up a fight (like your analogy), it's about syswalling - I'd never complain about a trader putting up a fight, if only that was what they do.

I don't think the game changes. Especially the new people who run away from pirates don't change. Only some players totally lose touch with reality the deeper they get into this game, and start to get absolutely crazy ideas about how they want other people to behave so they can get the kicks that they have come to covet and crave.

Well, I wrote that after conversations with a few returning players, who'd experienced the same and were a bit baffled by it. It used to be the exception to the norm that some people would read all sorts of strange things into a piracy encounter, but now it *is* the norm. Rather than either think "oh hey here's some dude that wants to play" or "ooh menacing pirate character across from me" they think "oh here's an evil douchebag player out to steal my lunch money, what a bully and scumbag person", and that is as untrue as it is unfair to your fellow player.

Amid all the shouting and complaining that traders don't submit in piracy encounters enough, someone posted a thread about a "good" piracy encounter a while ago. The trader RPed as being all shivering and scared and submissive, and the pirate made him blow a kiss to him as demand, and the trader did it. You know... I thought that was very revealing towards what kind of kicks some people come here for, and what their "ideal" fantasies really look like.

I think you should try and shift the view away from epeen-thing (like, wtf? all this talk about submitting, as if people get a kick out of it - would you? I don't know, that way of looking at it is a little... twisted?) and try to look at it differently: Most pirates just want interaction. Any meaningful interaction really. But when you hold up a person at gunpoint, asking for 18 nanobots and the guy silently refuses and starts running towards the system wall due to some misguided principle/schoolyard analogy, the game just stops being fun.

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[Laura C.]

Chasing someone is not the same because the decision was made by the weaker party. The weak party, because they cannot "win" the encounter in a conventional manner, by escaping or fighting off the attacker, decides to make the encounter annoying on an oorp level.
There's nothing to gain for the weak party in that scenario, assuming the attacker follows them all the way to the end, since they die either way, so there's absolutely no reason do so except out of oorp spite.

What is reason to chase somebody for like half an hour and when I obviously can´t catch him? I´m pretty sure it is not RP reason in most cases, but "I´m not gonna let you get away at all cost" attitude.

What is imaginable is that ships designed for pirating are sped up or transports slowed down via game mechanics. I wouldn't mind if that happened. There are a whole lot of other things that could be solved with game mechanics so ships are optimized for their real use more, including speed, armor, firepower, scanner range, scanner stealth, which would improve gameplay a good deal. Don't know if all of them are possible though.

That already happened. Transports have cruise speed 350 while bombers 360 and fighters even more depending on class (up to 425 I think, I don´t fly light fighters).

So only case when pirate is not able to catch the trader is when he is pirating in transport. If you want to be sure nobody will get away from you, simply pick fighter/bomber or freighter.

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On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[LonelyPlanet]

But that is the thing - you are not doing something 'bad' to them. You are providing a challenge in an otherwise challenge-free environment. You are providing a game.

Come on man, how many percent of people enjoy being pirated? Maybe they enjoy chasing pirates, but they don't enjoy being pirated, especially being pirated successfully. If you can't see that, you're not trying. Yes pirates are needed to keep things from being boring, but you're still doing something that is unwanted by someone to him. Doesn't mean he HAS to hate you for it or that he's right, but it does mean that you shouldn't really be surprised if it ticks him off.

But again, you really shouldn't take it personally. I don't know how to get that point across. In Battlefield 4, do you take it personal when some dude kills you? You seem to make it out to be about personalities, bullying and whatnot, when it isn't - personally I would enjoy playing the lawful side as much as I do unlawful, if only there'd be more unlawfuls to interact and play the game with. Also this discussion isn't about putting up a fight (like your analogy), it's about syswalling - I'd never complain about a trader putting up a fight, if only that was what they do.

I'm not taking it personally because we were talking about the behavior of other people, meaning those who run until they blow up, which is not my behavior. I have never run far off into empty space in the hope to make my attacker give up or to annoy him (although I've done other things that may have annoyed other people, like staying alive when they wanted me to explode). I have however run after several players who did that (run far off into empty space until they reached the barrier). Specifically I remember one transport that I pirated and one BHG bomber who was instakilling a bunch of order noobs and who fled when I assisted them. It so happened that I got both of the runners anyway without dying because they stopped shortly before the wall, and they then both pmed me something like "haha now you have to fly all the way back" to which I replied something like "np I'll make myself some food while I do". When they realized they didn't manage to make me angry and wasted their own time as much as mine, one started insulting me (the transport, which I didn't report because afterwards he was willing to talk reasonably and after I told him exactly what you told me about this being a game that would be boring without pirates, he apologized for insulting me. He didn't apologize for running away, and imo that's perfectly fine). The other (BHG or Core bomber) called an admin to ban me for being such an obnoxious "play to win" jerk to go after him so far. The friendly admin gladly complied and banned me. Btw say hi to Joe from me. And btw Mr Not-play-to-win-at-all R3venge targeted almost exclusively noobs himself because they were so easy to instakill, as do many Knights of the Order of Sportsmanship (KOS) here.

I don't know Battlefield 4, I assume its kind of like Planetside 2. I think the main reason people argue less about behavior in games like that is because you can't affect or mess up other players game as much as you can in discovery. In discovery, you can ruin other players plans for 2 hours (used to be 4) with the pvp death rules, take away something that took them 10-60 minutes to make (piracy), and you can even go as far as ruin everything for other people (mainly using the forum and skype). And the "important" part of the community often are perfectly fine with the latter, as long as people managed to brand someone as undesirable by what ever means they have at their disposal. I think that contributed to the fact that there is so much arguing here, and also why there are so many sado/maso e-peen wavers here.

Granted, a simple piracy attempt doesn't have to do any of that (although most of the time they demand credits worth something like 15 or 20 minutes of "work"). Even when you ask 17 nanobots or to blow a kiss at the pirate, for some people it may be seen as bullying, because its not something that you HAVE to do to play the game (like you cant play PS2 without shooting someone). If someone asked you to give 1 euro or he'll knock your teeth out, would you still, say that's ok because he's not asking for all your wallet?

I'm not saying that it always is bullying. I pirate too. I'm just saying that some people are bound to perceive it that way, and I'm saying that some people do bully, disguising it as RP (or masking it with lots <3 and pink text and homosexual references and rainbows and unicorns and funny jpegs and "umadbro?"). It's also something that you should expect in any game, especially when its played by people who are in various stages of puberty.

Again, I'm not saying everyone or anyone that posted here does that, but it does exist and it contributes to making people disgusted and hostile at each other. That only to say that someone who has developed a negative attitude isn't always necessarily the only one to blame for it.

So, I'd like to conclude that you shouldn't take everything I say personally either. I'm just saying that to a degree, you have to accept that some people get slightly upset, they may think you're a douchebag, and that running away from a pirate who may just as well give up if he doesn't like it is really a very, very, small thing. Certainly not something that you would want to sanction someone for. At least I think so.

Well, I wrote that after conversations with a few returning players, who'd experienced the same and were a bit baffled by it. It used to be the exception to the norm that some people would read all sorts of strange things into a piracy encounter, but now it *is* the norm. Rather than either think "oh hey here's some dude that wants to play" or "ooh menacing pirate character across from me" they think "oh here's an evil douchebag player out to steal my lunch money, what a bully and scumbag person", and that is as untrue as it is unfair to your fellow player.

Well I cant argue with what you say other people's experience is. In mine, people have been thinking their IRP enemies are douchebags since I started playing in 2008. They've also been thinking that anyone who shoots their IRP enemy is douchebag. And everyone who does RP that doesn't meet their expectations. And everyone who didn't read 5 pages of rules before starting to play the mod. And everyone who flies a cap. And everyone who doesn't follow their orders. And everyone who bot-passes. And everyone who shieldruns. And everyone who base-hugs. And everyone who helps their IRP allies when they ask for it. And everyone who ask for help when they know they will die without it. And everyone who avoids interaction and just runs to save himself.

And, there have also always been a lot of douchebags here. In my experience there are less douchebags here now, but that's just because there are less players, while the percentage of douchebags has probably stayed constant, which doesn't really make things better in terms of positive game experience.

I think you should try and shift the view away from epeen-thing (like, wtf? all this talk about submitting, as if people get a kick out of it - would you? I don't know, that way of looking at it is a little... twisted?) and try to look at it differently: Most pirates just want interaction. Any meaningful interaction really. But when you hold up a person at gunpoint, asking for 18 nanobots and the guy silently refuses and starts running towards the system wall due to some misguided principle/schoolyard analogy, the game just stops being fun.

You know if the guy does that, its not because I or anyone else made the analogy, but because he perceives you in a way that he would rather do that than interact with you in the way that you want. That's not necessarily your fault, but not necessarily only his fault either. In my opinion the life of pirates could be made better not by sanctioning people who don't like pirates, but by focusing money making more onto trade runs through trade lanes and to be done by lawful factions (instead of quasi lawfuls like junkers or zoners).

Here's my 5 point plan:

1. Nerf Junker cargo hold capacities to reduce big-buck scrap mining, and make junker ships extremely cheap (or trade corporation ships with large cargo more expensive) so it becomes an attractive faction for beginners, while more experienced players go into lawful trading. Preferably also put scrap fields in not so remote places to require little traveling.
2. Nerf jump trading
3. Buff inter-house trade routes to concentrate trade activity onto lanes
4. Make larger transports and caps appear at longer distances on scanners
5. Give pirates longer CD ranges, slightly faster ships (cruise speed, not agility, making pirate trans faster than transports although not as fast as snubs), and weapons that are more effective against transports (longer range, more energy efficiency, but slower projectile speed and shots per second to compensate), more ships with 2 CD/torp slots.

If you're worried about lawful/unlawful balance, make lawfuls capable of such loadouts too. These loadouts should give advantages against large ships, but disadvantages against small ships. Thus, lawfuls will have an advantage towards pirates in fighters if they use other loadouts, and pirates have an advantage over transports if they use fighters.

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User was banned for: Karlotta alt
Time left: (Permanent)

[Mímir]

In discovery, you can ruin other players plans for 2 hours (used to be 4) with the pvp death rules, take away something that took them 10-60 minutes to make (piracy), and you can even go as far as ruin everything for other people (mainly using the forum and skype).

Imagine how many times the pirate player has his plans "ruined" for 2 hours... So what - it's 1 system out of waaay too many, how can it be that important? It's a multiplayer game, and the fact that you cannot carefully plan every little detail, like a singleplayer game, is the beauty of it. That element of danger and randomness is what makes the game worthwhile. That is also the case in regards to handing over nanos, why blow it out of proportion - it is afterall just a game? And if time is that important, why not just - pay - the pirate?

I'm not saying that it always is bullying. I pirate too. I'm just saying that some people are bound to perceive it that way, and I'm saying that some people do bully, disguising it as RP (or masking it with lots <3 and pink text and homosexual references and rainbows and unicorns and funny jpegs and "umadbro?"). It's also something that you should expect in any game, especially when its played by people who are in various stages of puberty.

Well then you make the same mistake as I do and over-generalize. Myself and people I have pirated alongside do not pirate like that, and when I meet a pirate when trading I don't expect them to behave like that.

So, I'd like to conclude that you shouldn't take everything I say personally either. I'm just saying that to a degree, you have to accept that some people get slightly upset, they may think you're a douchebag, and that running away from a pirate who may just as well give up if he doesn't like it is really a very, very, small thing.

I do conclude that some people get upset like that, but that doesn't make it ok. How to reach out and make them understand that it's just a game and they should chill a little and accept defeat now and again and grow from it - or outsmart the pirate by conventional means? If not by sanctions, then how?

On the other end there's a player just like you, no reason to treat that player like a douchebag no matter what character he plays.

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[Papa Oomaumau]

/end Karlotta fueled discussion.

Escaping by flying away in a single direction is not trolling.
If I were to fly up to a pirate, on purpose, and scream "neener-neener, stinkface!" And then run the wall, that's another story.
But if I'm the pirate and I pop a transport in a lane, and in my stubbornness I decide to spend an hour following a runner that I have no chance of catching, that's on me.
That's a self-trolling.

If I'm too thick-headed to use my own discretion, let the guy think he lost me, and then be waiting for him in the next system, then I deserve every second of the lost hour.

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[lIceColon]

Nobody (aside from a very select few) wall run on purpose.
Wall running is only the natural consequence of being forced to fly in the opposite direction.
If the escapee turns left or right, the chasing party closes in (simple maths), so the only thing he can do is to keep on running.
And you'll be retarded if you think anyone's just gonna give you the satisfaction of an easy kill when you clearly are incapable of getting it.
As a trader, I find its very hard for me to piss off a pirate because usually its the pirate that makes me qq. but when the situation arises where I'm as fast as the pirate but the pirate is dumb enough to keep chasing, I'll take that opportunity just to spite the likes of you, such levels of entitlement and whiny, if you wasted your time then good.

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No atmosphere? GTFO.
The propeller is the greatest invention of all time.

[Mímir]

But why would you want to "piss off a pirate"? It's not like pirate players want to "piss off a trader" - they want to play their role, they want interaction and well loot or credits.

Why be a douche?

I really don't get it. It's this kind of attitude towards your fellow players that sometimes makes Discovery suck badly. The game is only as good as its players.

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[lIceColon]

But why would you want to "piss off a pirate"? It's not like pirate players want to "piss off a trader" - they want to play their role, they want interaction and well loot or credits.

Why be a douche?

I really don't get it. It's this kind of attitude towards your fellow players that sometimes makes Discovery suck badly. The game is only as good as its players.

why do you insist on chasing the trader? why be a douche? they want to play their role, they want their efficiency and profit and to keep their credits. If you want loot, go kill a npc.

I really don't get it. It's this kind of attitude towards your fellow players that sometimes makes Discovery suck badly. The game is only as good as its players.

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No atmosphere? GTFO.
The propeller is the greatest invention of all time.

[Lythrilux]

But why would you want to "piss off a pirate"? It's not like pirate players want to "piss off a trader" - they want to play their role, they want interaction and well loot or credits.

Why be a douche?

I really don't get it. It's this kind of attitude towards your fellow players that sometimes makes Discovery suck badly. The game is only as good as its players.

why do you insist on chasing the trader? why be a douche? they want to play their role, they want their efficiency and profit and to keep their credits. If you want loot, go kill a npc.

I really don't get it. It's this kind of attitude towards your fellow players that sometimes makes Discovery suck badly. The game is only as good as its players.

Run to a base, instead of trying to run into an ooRP system wall.

Can I actually just remind people that wall running also doesn't just apply to traders and pirates?
It's applicable to snubs chasing after other snubs that are running from fights and the like.

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