(02-23-2015, 03:46 PM)Hidamari Wrote: and what did their jump trading achieve? it moved the sellpoint of premium scrap away from Alpha to Gallia, which meant that not only activity and oppertunity to escort smugglers with .:j:. was damaged, they completely crippled the cardamine trade, so now there is NOBODY to escort at all.
rofl'ed at this.
(02-23-2015, 06:25 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: P R E A C H
Learn to smuggle and you will be fine.
expected this
Most of the real Junkers cheered when the sell point was nerfed because every powertrader and their grandmother was abusing Junker chars to make easy credits. This was being done heavily without any sort of jumping..
and then one day to put icing on the cake, as Darwin promisies, we started seeing the evolution of said behavior!
Outcast/Zoner jumpships with Interspace Transports and Junker miners in tow, roaming the fields of Texas!
Jumptrading is garbage and i enjoyed not taking part in it, good to see it die. The P-scrap sell point tho was garbage too, it put Ores to shame and ruined the real trade that should still dominate that route (Slaves :: Cardi), but unfortunately the smuggling economy is garbage as well. [Set prices to 12k buy point, 20k sell point for fix. Risk-based profit routes for smuggling plox.]
Most enjoyable for laughs though is to see the popular trend of pinning .:j:. as the reason for tears, poor interactions, nerfing, and loss of roleplay! Imagining Congress as evil sith lords who somehow dictate the entire server's economy makes for a large grin, as most subjective opinion statements do. The real problem is the fact that an illegal/legal smuggling faction is the #1 activity by threefold, that's your quandary of 'lack of server balance' and 'bona fide interaction' right there.
If one group is such an absurd majority of representation, you will never have interaction befitting/pleasing to all (see examples: governments and people)
On a more realistic note: Sorry your OC faction got 'the short end of the stick', but claiming that a faction/roleplay was built specifically off the activity/opportunity to interact with another faction, then trashing that group for not being 'good enough' anymore to carry your gameplay for you -- in the same sentence!! -- was just too damn rich to pass on.
OH, that right this is a complain about cloaks topic not a complain about others topic... hmm lets see... well we've gone absolutely nuts creating these POB manufactured devices to add variety, that people then seem to feel are completely useless, overpowered, ooRP, or too good to get rid of.
So if history teaches us anything... its that we should try doing the exact same thing and expect a different result, so lets create a new item that is POB manufactured, that allows you to disable cloaks! No, but in all seriousness, trying to manipulate a device (CD's) that have a very specific purpose, into doing something else, is never going to work effectively. We do actually need to create a new item. For balance Id say make it fit in either the CD or Missile slot so it doesn't totally ruin setups, let it be a very accurate, high speed, effective as all hell projectile since it will specifically only be used to counter cloaks
(02-23-2015, 03:46 PM)Hidamari Wrote: and what did their jump trading achieve? it moved the sellpoint of premium scrap away from Alpha to Gallia, which meant that not only activity and oppertunity to escort smugglers with .:j:. was damaged, they completely crippled the cardamine trade, so now there is NOBODY to escort at all.
rofl'ed at this.
(02-23-2015, 06:25 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: P R E A C H
Learn to smuggle and you will be fine.
expected this
Most of the real Junkers cheered when the sell point was nerfed because every powertrader and their grandmother was abusing Junker chars to make easy credits. This was being done heavily without any sort of jumping..
and then one day to put icing on the cake, as Darwin promisies, we started seeing the evolution of said behavior!
Outcast/Zoner jumpships with Interspace Transports and Junker miners in tow, roaming the fields of Texas!
Jumptrading is garbage and i enjoyed not taking part in it, good to see it die. The P-scrap sell point tho was garbage too, it put Ores to shame and ruined the real trade that should still dominate that route (Slaves :: Cardi), but unfortunately the smuggling economy is garbage as well.
[Set prices to 12k buy point, 20k sell point for fix. Risk-based profit routes for smuggling plox.]
Most enjoyable for laughs though is to see the popular trend of pinning .:j:. as the reason for tears, poor interactions, nerfing, and loss of roleplay! Imagining Congress as evil sith lords who somehow dictate the entire server's economy makes for a large grin, as most subjective opinion statements do. The real problem is the fact that an illegal/legal smuggling faction is the #1 activity by threefold, that's your quandary of 'lack of server balance' and 'bona fide interaction' right there.
If one group is such an absurd majority of representation, you will never have interaction befitting/pleasing to all (see: governments and people)
On a more realistic note: Sorry your OC faction got 'the short end of the stick', but claiming that a faction/roleplay was built specifically off the activity/opportunity to interact with another faction, then trashing that group for not being 'good enough' anymore to carry your gameplay for you -- in the same sentence!! -- was just too damn rich to pass on.
OH, that right this is a complain about cloaks topic not a complain about others topic... hmm lets see... well we've gone absolutely nuts creating these POB manufactured devices to add variety, that people then seem to feel are completely useless, overpowered, ooRP, or too good to get rid of.
So if history teaches us anything... its that we should try doing the exact same thing and expect a different result, so lets create a new item that is POB manufactured, that allows you to disable cloaks! No, but in all seriousness, trying to manipulate a device (CD's) that have a very specific purpose, into doing something else, is never going to work effectively. We do actually need to create a new item. For balance Id say make it fit in either the CD or Missile slot so it doesn't totally ruin setups, let it be a very accurate, high speed, effective as all hell projectile since it will specifically only be used to counter cloaks
(02-23-2015, 03:46 PM)Hidamari Wrote: and what did their jump trading achieve? it moved the sellpoint of premium scrap away from Alpha to Gallia, which meant that not only activity and oppertunity to escort smugglers with .:j:. was damaged, they completely crippled the cardamine trade, so now there is NOBODY to escort at all.
rofl'ed at this.
(02-23-2015, 06:25 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: P R E A C H
Learn to smuggle and you will be fine.
expected this
Most of the real Junkers cheered when the sell point was nerfed because every powertrader and their grandmother was abusing Junker chars to make easy credits. This was being done heavily without any sort of jumping..
and then one day to put icing on the cake, as Darwin promisies, we started seeing the evolution of said behavior!
Outcast/Zoner jumpships with Interspace Transports and Junker miners in tow, roaming the fields of Texas!
Jumptrading is garbage and i enjoyed not taking part in it, good to see it die. The P-scrap sell point tho was garbage too, it put Ores to shame and ruined the real trade that should still dominate that route (Slaves :: Cardi), but unfortunately the smuggling economy is garbage as well. [Set prices to 12k buy point, 20k sell point for fix. Risk-based profit routes for smuggling plox.]
Most enjoyable for laughs though is to see the popular trend of pinning .:j:. as the reason for tears, poor interactions, nerfing, and loss of roleplay! Imagining Congress as evil sith lords who somehow dictate the entire server's economy makes for a large grin, as most subjective opinion statements do. The real problem is the fact that an illegal/legal smuggling faction is the #1 activity by threefold, that's your quandary of 'lack of server balance' and 'bona fide interaction' right there.
If one group is such an absurd majority of representation, you will never have interaction befitting/pleasing to all (see examples: governments and people)
On a more realistic note: Sorry your OC faction got 'the short end of the stick', but claiming that a faction/roleplay was built specifically off the activity/opportunity to interact with another faction, then trashing that group for not being 'good enough' anymore to carry your gameplay for you -- in the same sentence!! -- was just too damn rich to pass on.
OH, that right this is a complain about cloaks topic not a complain about others topic... hmm lets see... well we've gone absolutely nuts creating these POB manufactured devices to add variety, that people then seem to feel are completely useless, overpowered, ooRP, or too good to get rid of.
So if history teaches us anything... its that we should try doing the exact same thing and expect a different result, so lets create a new item that is POB manufactured, that allows you to disable cloaks! No, but in all seriousness, trying to manipulate a device (CD's) that have a very specific purpose, into doing something else, is never going to work effectively. We do actually need to create a new item. For balance Id say make it fit in either the CD or Missile slot so it doesn't totally ruin setups, let it be a very accurate, high speed, effective as all hell projectile since it will specifically only be used to counter cloaks
Sorry but that's a load of crap. I myself caught .:J:. jumptrading twice with about 10 traders each time to Gamma to sell PScrap, and when you have a faction that has 42 days of activity a month, which is literally insane as it's more days than those exist in said month, they have a major impact on the server economy.
Dii points are VERY valid. Aside from the fact that Pscrap should have never been made in first place as it was a stupid idea that buffed Junkers as a faction too much. Junkers did more than fine with their very good reps (legal in 3 houses out of 5, and can also trade with nearly all the unlawful factions) and their ability to mine normal scrap. ALG did fine with their ability to trade in any house and mine normal scrap in a 5ker.
You can avoid dying by training not to, it takes far more time invested than getting the 100m that a light cloak costs (seriously, that takes about an hour and a half if you are a bad trader like me, probably less if you actually pay attention). Think you had a tool to avoid piracy so easily available (though that exists and called CAU 6), then all traders would use it and just run from the pirates you'd have no pirate-trader interaction. Then why would Police factions need to exist? The pirate will escape the blue anyway, so no point in chasing him even if he does log, and he doesn't pose a real threat to the traders who can also just run so really lets no bother. Why having fleet engagements if everyone can just use their easily bought magic tool, escape, resupply and come back? I mean, nobody wants to fight that, do we?
If you don't see the problem with that, and judging by your joining date, in comparison to 4.85 then I think you should really look into what keeps you playing here and the community around at this point.
(02-23-2015, 07:56 PM)Pancakes Wrote: Sorry but that's a load of crap. I myself caught .:J:. jumptrading twice with about 10 traders each time to Gamma to sell PScrap, and when you have a faction that has 42 days of activity a month, which is literally insane as it's more days than those exist in said month, they have a major impact on the server economy.
Dii points are VERY valid. Aside from the fact that Pscrap should have never been made in first place as it was a stupid idea that buffed Junkers as a faction too much. Junkers did more than fine with their very good reps (legal in 3 houses out of 5, and can also trade with nearly all the unlawful factions) and their ability to mine normal scrap. ALG did fine with their ability to trade in any house and mine normal scrap in a 5ker.
But that's not the point of the discussion here.
Well duh, im not ignoring the obvious. Theres a large contingency of both the community and faction that does so, hence why i said specifically The real problem is the fact that an illegal/legal smuggling faction is the #1 activity by threefold, that's your quandary of 'lack of server balance' and 'bona fide interaction' right there.
If one group is such an absurd majority of representation, you will never have interaction befitting/pleasing to all (see examples: governments and people)
Thank you though for minding to pay attention to the point I was trying to make otherwise.
Its not like one group somehow recruits better, or offer members a billion sc to join, and frankly its moronic to complain about players being 'too active'. One can make complaints about 'quality' or 'quantity', sure, but such things exist throughout this server and the .:j:. tag simply represents the largest grouping of players. Such ridiculously skewed activity figures represent problems with the design of the structure, not the people. The reality of the problems with cloaks, economies, or jumptrading is within the implementation and not the actions of its proprieters.
Hence why Junkers continue to see specific nerfs directed at spreading activity elsewhere, with the goal of even-ing things out. This is good.
So far it has not been as effective as desired, not even close. This is bad.
Some ideas (like removing RA's from Culebra Smelter) have done the exact opposite, and brought more hours of necessary trading. This is even worse.
Therefore Junkers remain a heavily (hated is a bad word... detested?) faction among many, despite efforts to remove its dominance.
=============
Its just silly, and tiresome, to see the crying that goes along with said issues; as most of it is just that and offers little to solutions or fruition of tangible ideas. Nerf nerf nerf, complain complain complain, has had little effect -- clearly. Despite months and months of such, .:j:. activity is still absurdly ballooned, so offer something fruitful to bring it to size instead of trying to throw darts at it.
On that note, you wouldn't believe what a difference in interaction I will have on a Junker versus a Congress ship. Night and Day does not even suffice. Not to say the latter group is perfect in its modus operandi, not by far in fact, but the reciprocating interactions it encounters are equally poor. Some have completely resigned themselves to the belief that a positive one is not possible. Arguments regarding other balance (commodities, equipment, etc) follow the same path until they degrade to player defamation as such above.
Its become a remarkably effective cycle of Disco ineffectiveness, loud and ugly, one that i'm happy to distance myself from at every opportunity.
Immersing myself entirely in a very separate Smuggling/POB roleplay that includes all, and does not require me to argue with such, is what keeps me here.
(02-23-2015, 07:56 PM)Pancakes Wrote: Sorry but that's a load of crap. I myself caught .:J:. jumptrading twice with about 10 traders each time to Gamma to sell PScrap, and when you have a faction that has 42 days of activity a month, which is literally insane as it's more days than those exist in said month, they have a major impact on the server economy.
Dii points are VERY valid. Aside from the fact that Pscrap should have never been made in first place as it was a stupid idea that buffed Junkers as a faction too much. Junkers did more than fine with their very good reps (legal in 3 houses out of 5, and can also trade with nearly all the unlawful factions) and their ability to mine normal scrap. ALG did fine with their ability to trade in any house and mine normal scrap in a 5ker.
But that's not the point of the discussion here.
Well duh, im not ignoring the obvious. Theres a large contingency of both the community and faction that does so, hence why i said specifically The real problem is the fact that an illegal/legal smuggling faction is the #1 activity by threefold, that's your quandary of 'lack of server balance' and 'bona fide interaction' right there.
If one group is such an absurd majority of representation, you will never have interaction befitting/pleasing to all (see examples: governments and people)
Thank you though for minding to pay attention to the point I was trying to make otherwise.
Its not like one group somehow recruits better, or offer members a billion sc to join, and frankly its moronic to complain about players being 'too active'. One can make complaints about 'quality' or 'quantity', sure, but such things exist throughout this server and the .:j:. tag simply represents the largest grouping of players. Such ridiculously skewed activity figures represent problems with the design of the structure, not the people. The reality of the problems with cloaks, economies, or jumptrading is within the implementation and not the actions of its proprieters.
Hence why Junkers continue to see specific nerfs directed at spreading activity elsewhere, with the goal of even-ing things out. This is good.
So far it has not been as effective as desired, not even close. This is bad.
Some ideas (like removing RA's from Culebra Smelter) have done the exact opposite, and brought more hours of necessary trading. This is even worse.
Therefore Junkers remain a heavily (hated is a bad word... detested?) faction among many, despite efforts to remove its dominance.
=============
Its just silly, and tiresome, to see the crying that goes along with said issues; as most of it is just that and offers little to solutions or fruition of tangible ideas. Nerf nerf nerf, complain complain complain, has had little effect -- clearly. Despite months and months of such, .:j:. activity is still absurdly ballooned, so offer something fruitful to bring it to size instead of trying to throw darts at it.
On that note, you wouldn't believe what a difference in interaction I will have on a Junker versus a Congress ship. Night and Day does not even suffice. Not to say the latter group is perfect in its modus operandi, not by far in fact, but the reciprocating interactions it encounters are equally poor. Some have completely resigned themselves to the belief that a positive one is not possible. Arguments regarding other balance (commodities, equipment, etc) follow the same path until they degrade to player defamation as such above.
Its become a remarkably effective cycle of Disco ineffectiveness, loud and ugly, one that i'm happy to distance myself from at every opportunity.
Immersing myself entirely in a very separate Smuggling/POB roleplay that includes all, and does not require me to argue with such, is what keeps me here.
You basically just said that .:J:. shouldn't be held to a higher standard, issue is that they should, they are an official faction. And I doubt that they received their SRP battleship in order to do jump trading.
Nobody saying 'nerf nerf nerf' senselessly. There is literally no reason that Junkers should be able to have a mineable commodity like the mining factions.
Instead smuggling should become a profitable thing but risky, somewhere between trading and mining in terms of risk, but the loss would be really high. (Like, buy cardi for 10k a piece, but sell it for 17k). Instead of making Junkers yet anther generic faction, make them what they are meant to be.
(02-23-2015, 09:19 PM)Pancakes Wrote: Nobody saying 'nerf nerf nerf' senselessly. There is literally no reason that Junkers should be able to have a mineable commodity like the mining factions.
Instead smuggling should become a profitable thing but risky, somewhere between trading and mining in terms of risk, but the loss would be really high. (Like, buy cardi for 10k a piece, but sell it for 17k). Instead of making Junkers yet anther generic faction, make them what they are meant to be.
Firstly, you say, that Junkers should not have any mineable commodity, and then, you talking about making Junkers as they meant to be.
Just pointing...that Junkers being called Junkers, because of what? Oh right, because of Junk, or scrap, or wrecks, or debris.
Salvaging all this stuff, and do some business. So...in game, it's impossible to move or salvage large metal chunks or debris.
Scrap mining is how such things could be done. Here we have everyting fine.
Talking about premium scrap... I think it's obviouse, that different ships might be made of different materials. Some of them
are valuable, some not. Some military wrecks could contain more or less functioning devices. Armour layers from capital ship, which are made from special alloys, all this do cost it's money. So this also could be called "premium" scrap. I see nothing wrong with Junkers being doing what they are called Junkers for.
(02-23-2015, 09:19 PM)Pancakes Wrote: Nobody saying 'nerf nerf nerf' senselessly. There is literally no reason that Junkers should be able to have a mineable commodity like the mining factions.
Instead smuggling should become a profitable thing but risky, somewhere between trading and mining in terms of risk, but the loss would be really high. (Like, buy cardi for 10k a piece, but sell it for 17k). Instead of making Junkers yet anther generic faction, make them what they are meant to be.
Firstly, you say, that Junkers should not have any mineable commodity, and then, you talking about making Junkers as they meant to be.
Just pointing...that Junkers being called Junkers, because of what? Oh right, because of Junk, or scrap, or wrecks, or debris.
Salvaging all this stuff, and do some business. So...in game, it's impossible to move or salvage large metal chunks or debris.
Scrap mining is how such things could be done. Here we have everyting fine.
Talking about premium scrap... I think it's obviouse, that different ships might be made of different materials. Some of them
are valuable, some not. Some military wrecks could contain more or less functioning devices. Armour layers from capital ship, which are made from special alloys, all this do cost it's money. So this also could be called "premium" scrap. I see nothing wrong with Junkers being doing what they are called Junkers for.
I said junkers shouldn't be a mining faction (because they shouldn't), and you can still happily mine normal scrap and sell it for pretty damn nice price too. And if you want to put Premium Scraps so much into RP - alright, then nerf the drop rate of it to oblivion, it's supposed to be something rare. If ships with REAL valuable material were damaged, those who own them would already make sure to clean them up and reuse themselves.
You also need to look on the net ability of the faction to determine what it should and what it shouldn't be able to do. Junkers can mine normal scrap (which as I said - is pretty profitable and also quite safe, people have been doing it since 4.85), they can dock on all unlawful bases except Hogosha/FA/Xeno bases, they can also dock on all lawfuls bases except Gallic and Kusari lawfuls. Junker ID, as a trader ID, is VERY VERY strong one for these reasons. You simply can't have a 'have it all' in one ID, that's not how balance between factions work.
It's the same case of the old IMG high gold ore mining bonus - why play BMM when you can take IMG, do the same with 90% the mining speed but not having the local faction of Dublin shooting you. People complained when it was first suggested to nerf down IMG gold mining, because it didn't make much sense inRP - IMG were inRP pretty good at it. However when you looked on BMM and saw the faction nearly completely dead, you could understand that balance-wise, something was terribly wrong here.
And on top of that, you add the fact that junkers can solo mine in a 3.3ker with GB turrets, while the others have to mine in the oversized Hegemon with 2750 cargo hold, with normal transport turrets and very crappy gun archs.